Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mouseferatu" data-source="post: 260645" data-attributes="member: 1288">Okay.  I've calmed down a bit, and hopefully others have done the same.  I'm going to take one last crack at this, before I throw up my hands in despair and figure that I'm just not expressing the way I feel properly.(This, by the way, is why I write fiction.  I have no problems expressing how fictional characters feel, but I can't express my own viewpoints all that succinctly...)First, I should never have brought up fiction examples, because we all have differing ideas of where fiction fits into this sort of thing.  So scrap all that.  Let's bring the focus back to where it belongs--D&D specifically.As characters and campaigns advance, the DM is ultimately left with two different types of challenges to throw at them: More and Different.More is the drift from kobolds to orcs to ogres to giants to demons to dragons; from masterwork swords to +2 keen to +5 holy avengers.  The monsters are tougher, and they have more magic, and the characters have a much wider array of abilities and spells with which to combat them, but it's still, boiled down its most basic form, more of the same stuff you were doing at first level.Important Note:  There is nothing wrong with this.  "More" is fun.  More is essential.  Characters get tougher, monsters get tougher.  That's the way it works.  What I've said so far is not a complaint, and not be taken in any negative light whatsoever.  "More" is an integral part of the game, and of advancement.The other option is Different.  Different means stuff the characters haven't done before.  When you throw your first mystery at them, that's Different.  When they're high enough level to begin ruling their own territory, or playing politics with kings, that's Different.  And when--if your campaigns reach this stage--they begin hobnobbing with deities, that's Different.Now, remember what I said about More being essential?  It is.  But it's not enough.  As campaigns advance, for them to remain fun--in my opinion, of course--they must include a good mix of More and Different.The Epic Level Handbook does More very well.  Extremely well, even.  But it falters on Different.The problem is, it goes so high in the direction of More that--again, in my opinion--it doesn't feel right if the world doesn't in some way change with it.  It's different, but it's not Different, if you get my meaning.  They give us all these new toys to play with, but they only tell us how to get More use out of them.Where are the challenges that only epic-level characters can face?  Sure, we've got really tough monsters, but that's just More.  Where are the Different challenges?  Where are the new plots, the new types of stories to tell?  Or, if that's asking too much, where are the tips on making the More at least feel Different?  Where are the tools to make a battle between a 50th level party and a Prismatic Dragon feel different--and Different--than a battle between an 18th level party and a Red Dragon?  Where are the magic items that, rather than just doing the same old stuff with higher numbers, do things that we never even imagined at low levels?Does the book touch on this?  Yes, a bit.  But not nearly enough, and that's where my dissatisfaction lies.  My problem is not with the massive power levels of the characters in an epic campaign.  My problem is that the book only deals with massive power levels, without delving into repurcussions and stories that stem from them.Again, I'm not talking about hand-holding, although some of you may see it that way.  I've been DMing for almost 20 years, I know how to build a story.  But I still appreciate being given the tools with which to build those stories, and ELH didn't provide them.  Tools for building epic characters, yes, absolutely.  But, at least in my mind, a story involving these proto-demigods should feel different--and Different--than a lower-level story.  And the book simply doesn't provide any means, or even any tips, on doing that.As the book stands now--at least as I see it--an epic level campaign is the same as a lower-level campaign, just with higher numbers and bigger monsters.  I wanted more than that.  I wanted more than just the mechanics to change at 21st level.  I wanted more than just a continuation of the same progression we've seen when it comes to magic items.  And I'll provide more than that if/when I run one, but I'd hope to get at least something in that regard from the book.They managed it with epic-level spells.  Those are something new.  Heck, I might even try to retro-engineer the system at some point as an optional replacement to the normal fire-and-forget spell slots.  This wasn't just More, it was Different.  And it's one of my favorite parts of the book.  I just wish more of the book could have been like this.</blockquote>

Verification