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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kai Lord" data-source="post: 261453" data-attributes="member: 3570">I know what you mean.  My point is that I don't see it as an "epic vs. non-epic" thing.  The game changes feel when characters advance to fifth level and are no longer in so much danger as getting killed out right by a single unlucky to hit roll.  The feel changes when they start getting magic items as mundane and easily abused as elven cloaks.  It changes again when they can start teleporting.  And so on.I see a lot of the "different" kinds of challenges as just coming out of roleplaying a campaign with any modicum of depth.  I once had a character save the world, interact with (and even defeat) 23rd level evil wizards, and come to a truce of respect with a fighter-mage on his way to lichdom while travelling through time in search of an artifact that could ruin the world--when he was 7th level.I've also DM'd a campaign where the player's 18th level thief spent almost the entire campaign building and nurturing his underground empire in a major city.  Which of those campaigns featured the more varied and "epic" challenges?  The first, of course, it had that epic "feel" through and through, which was totally different than the localized threats of the high-level campaign.Basically, "epic" is where ever you put it in the campaign, and its not something based on aspects as easily measurable as character abilities and power.Sure an adventure where a player challenges the gods will have a different feel than something less ambitious.  Those adventures are rare for me as well, that particular example was just the result of a player getting inspired by some of the novels that D&D is supposed to emulate and I wanted to see if I could pull it off so I obliged.The point is, we can already see where the ELH fits into all sorts of "standard" fantasy campaigns.  Look at Legolas.  Could easily be an epic character adventuring with non-epics in a sprawling standard adventure.  But being able to unload with the Improved Manyshot and Storm of Arrows feats on waves of Uruk-hai isn't going to make him immune to the One Ring of Power.The ELH supports Tolkien, Dragonlance, Wu Xia, and God smiting paladins who ride Plutonium Dragons while thieves steal the stars from the sky.  Notice that the book doesn't spend time illustrating what a Tolkienesque or Wu Xia setting is like.  Because I'm excited about the book, and have no problem taking the oppurtunity to offer some counterpoints to those who are less than excited.  If you get nothing from my commentary, the time spent projecting my thoughts was enjoyably stimulating so I have fun either way.Someone who has only experienced anime like Dragon Ball Z might look at the ELH and say, "the feel is off.  I thought this would help me play some of that 'Dragonlance' stuff I hear about.  Here are Epic Spells that you could use to counter gods with, but what kind of story would fit into?"There's no way they could cater to every person that hasn't read every kind of story featuring epic characters.  That's where my hand-holding comments came from.  To some people epic adventures equate to Thor comics, for some its anime and wu xia, for others its Greek myth, Tolkien, Dragonlance, or Planescape.  If you have trouble conceiving what kinds of stories the powers of the book fit into, I feel its unfair to expect the ELH to walk you through them.  There's so much fantasy that D&D really hasn't been able to emulate, fantasy that the ELH now provides rules for.Fair enough.  I hope you enjoy your campaigns as much as I have enjoyed mine.</blockquote>

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