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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3037853" data-attributes="member: 141">[edit]I compare my guestimate of the mitigating factors to what Sep posted last night.So 18 SP for a +6 Int, and 58 SP for a +8?  I'm not sure it should be that much easier to summon a lava wight than it is to give yourself a temporary +8 enhancement modifier to intelligence.  Granted, owl’s insight (Druid 5; at 20th level gives +10 Wis for one hour) might be an anomaly (I don't see anything similar for Intelligence or Charisma in the SC), but would it really be overpowered for a greater fox's cunning (+8 Int) to be a 6th level spell (SP 22)?  Or for supreme fox's cunning (+10 Int) to be an 8th level spell (SP 26)?Maybe it’d be broken.  I'll take your word for it, for now.  Perhaps the question could be revisited after more of your system is revealed (especially the mitigating factors) and some sample spells are described.Most of the mitigating factors are up (except for the ritual spells) but I still don't see it.  Maybe it'll sink in if I think about it a bit more.I’m gonna take a stab at what some of those mitigating factors are going to be:I'm estimating that a feat provides a 1/day mitigating factor of between -5 and -10 SP.   Syneresis, for example, costs a feat slot, and thereafter enables epic spellcasting feats to be turned into -10 modifiers.  That'd be -10 for two feats, -20 for three feats, etc..Similarly, if a high level cleric's daily turning slots are worth two or three feats, Magnificat works out to be about -5 per feat equivalent. Magnificat would also enable a charismatic Druid (or wise Sorcerer) to take a level of cleric and a divine feat in order to get a -20 mitigating factor 1/day.  That seems about right; multiclassing is a cost worth a feat or two.Based on that, and based on the Upper Krust’s notion that a level is worth about 6 feats, it seems that sacrificing a level should be worth about a -30 to the Spellcraft Prerequisite.  Maybe even -40 or -50, if you are generous.  The sacrifice of xp should be somewhat comparable.  If you are 25th level then a sacrifice of 10 000 xp is 40% of a level and should be worth 12 SP or so.   As opposed to the 100 that the ELH says it is worth!I think that is probably reasonable, especially for a damaging spell.  A more powerful spell kills more bad guys, and so earns the caster more experience.  Is the 12 SP going to translate into 10 000 xp more?  Well, maybe.  If it’s an enlarged reality maelstrom on a demonic battlefield it probably would.  Ah, I see you were generous!  10 000 xp is worth 40 SP in your system.  That corresponds to a whole sacrificed level = -100 rather than -30.  More than I expected.Suppose they sacrifice wealth, instead?  In the form of expensive material components, say.  The ELH (p. 23) says a 25th level character should have 2,100,000 gp worth of wealth/equipment (or their equivalent in game).  A 26th level character has 2,500,000.  Upper Krust says a level of wealth is worth 2 feats (he used to think 1, but he changed his mind).  So that would yield a conservative exchange rate of  400 000 gp = 10 SP.  Or 40 000 gp = 1 SP.  This should probably be capped at a maximum of 10 SP.      My feat based estimate on mitigating factors was based on a bonus per day.  But a caster can't spend 400 000 gp every day on their epic spells!  Sure they'll be defeating more powerful foes and getting more treasure, but probably not that much more (an encounter isn't worth 400 000 gp until EL 37.  See ELH 122.   Thinking about it more, I'd probably make power components worth about 100 000 gp = 10 SP.  Your rate is about twice as generous. I wonder if these numbers would work throughout the range between 20th and 40th level?  10 000 xp = 12 SP is an ugly formula.  1000 xp = 1 SP is much nicer.  And while at 40th level 10 000 xp won’t be worth quite as much as at 25th level, I think the cost is still pretty substantial. A 39th level character accumulates 1.3 million gold getting to 40th level, so 400 000 gp is nothing to be sneezed at.Sep's system is about 4 times as generous as my first guess was. Ok.  How about backlash?  I like your idea about Con damage, but something I had failed to notice before was that heal cured all ability damage.  I don't know exactly how you are going to handle backlash, but it'll seem cheesy if a heal or mass heal can indirectly boost an epic spell by a lot.  Con drain wouldn't be that much better; a simple 4th level restoration cures it, but takes 3 rounds to cast.  And a gp cost, but at these levels 100 gp of diamond dust is negligible.  If anything helps, it is the 3 extra rounds it takes to get back up to full Con.Perhaps a dismissible Con penalty that can only be applied to non-instantaneous spells?  If the Con penalty goes away, so does the spell.  Maybe cap this at -10 as well.  Perhaps have the penalty apply as well to Strength and Dexterity, representing the physical drain of the spell.  Undead, who lack Constitution, might be eligible to take this mitigating factor as long as they have the other two stats.Similarly, a factor which represents a heavy psychic load could be used.  A spellcaster could take up to -10 dismissible penalty to all mental stats in order to maintain an epic spell. Con damage that can't be healed by non-epic magic. Also a good solution.  My use of penalties seems similar to your use of embedded spells, though I don't think those are as easily dismissed.  Special purpose epic healing spells, designed to heal only backlash, would certainly be possible, wouldn't they?  But then that character would have one less epic spell to contribute to cooperative or ritual casting.Anyway, that’s the result of my brainstorming.  I’m eager to see what you came up with!Interesting.  I was quite a bit more strict with regard to treasure and xp.  I should crunch some numbers to see what encounters can be overcome using more powerful epic spells (ones that require power components and/or xp), and whether the extra treasure and xp earned makes up for the difference in cost.  The duration factors are also higher than I anticipated.  A -15 to a spell that takes an hour to cast- that brings all sorts of things into the realm of possibility...</blockquote>

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