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<blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3054200" data-attributes="member: 141">How about if we abstract the whole thing a little more? Say that the bonus to a ritual spell involving followers and cohorts is equal to the leadership score.&nbsp; For number and level of followers, say that when a character takes the leadership feat to form a cabal, use the normal leadership numbers but the levels of all followers are reduced by 3.&nbsp; Effectively I'm following that rule about exceptional followers.&nbsp; For each leadership score calculate the total levels of the followers.&nbsp; If some of the followers are missing, use the line that corresponds to that reduced number of total levels instead of the leader's leadership.For instance, a wizard with a leadership 27 score has 39 levels of followers.&nbsp; If two of the 1st level followers are missing he has to use the leadership 26 line instead, and gets a +26 bonus.A character with leadership 25 will have 4 x 1st-level; 2 x 2nd-level; 2 x 3rd-level ; 1 x 4th-level followers and one 17th-level cohort in his cabal.&nbsp; He'd get a +25 bonus from a ritual where all his followers/cohorts (35 levels total) participate.&nbsp; He needs to be at least 24th level since he'll need Ritual Adept to handle 10 people.&nbsp; Leaving out the 1st and 2nd level followers he can function on the leadership 24 line instead (27 levels of followers).Maybe the followers don't all need to be spellcasters, either.&nbsp; When the pope says Mass at St. Peter's there are oodles of lay people present.&nbsp; Not just as spectators, either; acolytes, altar servers, lectors, thurifers, etc..&nbsp; They would need to be well-trained in their roles, though- a lot of rehearsal would be needed before a cabal would actually engage in a ritual.&nbsp; &nbsp; Now admittedly the pope doesn't bind Archdevils during Sunday mass at St. Peter's, but you get the idea.(The motivation behind this is to allow PCs who aren't spellcasters to get involved in an epic ritual.&nbsp; And also to have a cabal who don't have too much independent magical power.&nbsp; Not all the cultists at a magical ritual will be able to cast magic missile at you when you come barging in and disrupt it.)It's the leader's ability to make his followers work as an extension of his will that makes the leadership feat appropriate.&nbsp; You can't just round up a random collection of NPCs and expect them to perform as well.&nbsp; How about making the case of a leader with followers the paradigm case?&nbsp; Such a character would have his leadership indicated, and the total hit dice in his cabal.&nbsp; He can lead a ritual with people who are not his followers (e.g. with PCs), but this is less effective.&nbsp; Only characters of level 6 or higher count, and they halve their levels when figuring out how their total hit dice compares to the cabal score, and the consequent bonus.For example, suppose a 21st level wizard has the leadership feat, but his cohort is dead and his followers scattered.&nbsp; His leadership score is 25, the maximum allowed by the feat.&nbsp; He enlists the other party members to cast a ritual spell; 21 halved is 10.&nbsp; If there are 4 other PCs they can fill in for the 35 total levels of the cabal, and the caster can get his full bonus.&nbsp; 4 characters is all his 24 ranks in spellcraft allow him to coordinate, so that's about right.A 40th level sorcerer with a leadership of 60.&nbsp; 75 1st; 38 2nd; 19 3rd; 10 4th; 5 5th; 3 6th;&nbsp; 2 7th; 1 8th level follower and a 35th level cohort.&nbsp; That's 348 levels total.&nbsp; If he doesn't have his cabal present he could round up 696 levels of characters instead (all of at least 6th level).&nbsp; But even with the ritual adept feat he can only coordinate 16 other characters.&nbsp; He probably won't be able to get the full +60 bonus unless a fair chunk of his cabal is present.&nbsp; +60 sounds like a lot, but there will be more than 150 people involved; it should be a lot.What about a character without the leadership feat?&nbsp; Can he lead a ritual?&nbsp; I'd say that his level counts for half in determining his effective leadership score, and thus the maximum bonus he could get.You can tinker with this.&nbsp; <s>Maybe at least half the participants have to be spellcasters.</s>&nbsp; [edit]The hit dice from cohorts have to be spellcasters.[/edit] They each expend one of their highest level spell slots.&nbsp; If this is not an epic spell slot then their hit dice only counts as twice the spell level of the slot (and may be further reduced if not a cohort).&nbsp; (A 25th level wizard contributing an 8th level slot counts only as a 16 level participant.)&nbsp; Non-spellcasters can participate, but they are fatigued from the effort (for a few minutes at least).&nbsp; Characters with the Cooperative Spell feat count as cohorts for the purpose of joining a cabal.&nbsp; Or whatever.Anyway, that's my take on things.[sblock=Leadership, total levels in cabal, number of members in the cabal]2&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 110&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 111&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 112&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 113&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 114&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 115&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 116&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 117&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 218&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 219&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 320&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 421&nbsp; &nbsp; 22&nbsp; &nbsp; 522&nbsp; &nbsp; 24&nbsp; &nbsp; 623&nbsp; &nbsp; 26&nbsp; &nbsp; 724&nbsp; &nbsp; 27&nbsp; &nbsp; 725&nbsp; &nbsp; 35&nbsp; &nbsp; 1026&nbsp; &nbsp; 36&nbsp; &nbsp; 1027&nbsp; &nbsp; 39&nbsp; &nbsp; 1228&nbsp; &nbsp; 41&nbsp; &nbsp; 1329&nbsp; &nbsp; 44&nbsp; &nbsp; 1530&nbsp; &nbsp; 46&nbsp; &nbsp; 1631&nbsp; &nbsp; 61&nbsp; &nbsp; 2132&nbsp; &nbsp; 63&nbsp; &nbsp; 2233&nbsp; &nbsp; 67&nbsp; &nbsp; 2534&nbsp; &nbsp; 74&nbsp; &nbsp; 2835&nbsp; &nbsp; 78&nbsp; &nbsp; 3136&nbsp; &nbsp; 101&nbsp; &nbsp; 3837&nbsp; &nbsp; 105&nbsp; &nbsp; 4138&nbsp; &nbsp; 113&nbsp; &nbsp; 4539&nbsp; &nbsp; 117&nbsp; &nbsp; 4840&nbsp; &nbsp; 129&nbsp; &nbsp; 5341&nbsp; &nbsp; 134&nbsp; &nbsp; 5742&nbsp; &nbsp; 142&nbsp; &nbsp; 6143&nbsp; &nbsp; 174&nbsp; &nbsp; 7144&nbsp; &nbsp; 179&nbsp; &nbsp; 7445&nbsp; &nbsp; 187&nbsp; &nbsp; 7946&nbsp; &nbsp; 192&nbsp; &nbsp; 8247&nbsp; &nbsp; 206&nbsp; &nbsp; 8948&nbsp; &nbsp; 214&nbsp; &nbsp; 9349&nbsp; &nbsp; 219&nbsp; &nbsp; 9750&nbsp; &nbsp; 236&nbsp; &nbsp; 10351&nbsp; &nbsp; 246&nbsp; &nbsp; 10952&nbsp; &nbsp; 251&nbsp; &nbsp; 11253&nbsp; &nbsp; 263&nbsp; &nbsp; 11854&nbsp; &nbsp; 268&nbsp; &nbsp; 12155&nbsp; &nbsp; 278&nbsp; &nbsp; 12756&nbsp; &nbsp; 316&nbsp; &nbsp; 13657&nbsp; &nbsp; 321&nbsp; &nbsp; 14058&nbsp; &nbsp; 329&nbsp; &nbsp; 14459&nbsp; &nbsp; 343&nbsp; &nbsp; 15160&nbsp; &nbsp; 348&nbsp; &nbsp; 15461&nbsp; &nbsp; 356&nbsp; &nbsp; 15962&nbsp; &nbsp; 361&nbsp; &nbsp; 16263&nbsp; &nbsp; 380&nbsp; &nbsp; 17064&nbsp; &nbsp; 388&nbsp; &nbsp; 17465&nbsp; &nbsp; 393&nbsp; &nbsp; 17866&nbsp; &nbsp; 405&nbsp; &nbsp; 18367&nbsp; &nbsp; 415&nbsp; &nbsp; 18968&nbsp; &nbsp; 420&nbsp; &nbsp; 19269&nbsp; &nbsp; 443&nbsp; &nbsp; 20070&nbsp; &nbsp; 448&nbsp; &nbsp; 20371&nbsp; &nbsp; 458&nbsp; &nbsp; 20972&nbsp; &nbsp; 470&nbsp; &nbsp; 21473&nbsp; &nbsp; 475&nbsp; &nbsp; 21874&nbsp; &nbsp; 483&nbsp; &nbsp; 22275&nbsp; &nbsp; 502&nbsp; &nbsp; 230[/SBLOCK]So looking at this chart you could see that a character with a leadership of 65 leads a cabal with 393 levels (total) and 178 individuals.&nbsp; If for some reason only 300 levels worth of followers were available, the maximum bonus would be +55 (the first line with less than 300 total levels).&nbsp; And so on.[edit]The payoff is very nearly linear at lower levels, and pretty close to how it should be.&nbsp; A wizard with a leadership of 20 gets two companions to contribute 9th level spells in an impromptu cabal.&nbsp; Their levels count as 18 (as twice the spell level) and see they aren't cohorts/followers the value is halved.&nbsp; Still, between them that's enough to provide 18 levels, and so the wizard gets the +20 ritual bonus.&nbsp; If there were only one such companion then he'd still get a +13 bonus.&nbsp; Too good?&nbsp; Maybe, but I don't think it will break anything.And it is pretty hard to get those high bonuses; a lot of people have to gather in one spot.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cheiromancer, post: 3054200, member: 141"] How about if we abstract the whole thing a little more? Say that the bonus to a ritual spell involving followers and cohorts is equal to the leadership score. For number and level of followers, say that when a character takes the leadership feat to form a cabal, use the normal leadership numbers but the levels of all followers are reduced by 3. Effectively I'm following that rule about exceptional followers. For each leadership score calculate the total levels of the followers. If some of the followers are missing, use the line that corresponds to that reduced number of total levels instead of the leader's leadership. For instance, a wizard with a leadership 27 score has 39 levels of followers. If two of the 1st level followers are missing he has to use the leadership 26 line instead, and gets a +26 bonus. A character with leadership 25 will have 4 x 1st-level; 2 x 2nd-level; 2 x 3rd-level ; 1 x 4th-level followers and one 17th-level cohort in his cabal. He'd get a +25 bonus from a ritual where all his followers/cohorts (35 levels total) participate. He needs to be at least 24th level since he'll need Ritual Adept to handle 10 people. Leaving out the 1st and 2nd level followers he can function on the leadership 24 line instead (27 levels of followers). Maybe the followers don't all need to be spellcasters, either. When the pope says Mass at St. Peter's there are oodles of lay people present. Not just as spectators, either; acolytes, altar servers, lectors, thurifers, etc.. They would need to be well-trained in their roles, though- a lot of rehearsal would be needed before a cabal would actually engage in a ritual. Now admittedly the pope doesn't bind Archdevils during Sunday mass at St. Peter's, but you get the idea. (The motivation behind this is to allow PCs who aren't spellcasters to get involved in an epic ritual. And also to have a cabal who don't have too much independent magical power. Not all the cultists at a magical ritual will be able to cast [i]magic missile[/i] at you when you come barging in and disrupt it.) It's the leader's ability to make his followers work as an extension of his will that makes the leadership feat appropriate. You can't just round up a random collection of NPCs and expect them to perform as well. How about making the case of a leader with followers the paradigm case? Such a character would have his leadership indicated, and the total hit dice in his cabal. He can lead a ritual with people who are not his followers (e.g. with PCs), but this is less effective. Only characters of level 6 or higher count, and they halve their levels when figuring out how their total hit dice compares to the cabal score, and the consequent bonus. For example, suppose a 21st level wizard has the leadership feat, but his cohort is dead and his followers scattered. His leadership score is 25, the maximum allowed by the feat. He enlists the other party members to cast a ritual spell; 21 halved is 10. If there are 4 other PCs they can fill in for the 35 total levels of the cabal, and the caster can get his full bonus. 4 characters is all his 24 ranks in spellcraft allow him to coordinate, so that's about right. A 40th level sorcerer with a leadership of 60. 75 1st; 38 2nd; 19 3rd; 10 4th; 5 5th; 3 6th; 2 7th; 1 8th level follower and a 35th level cohort. That's 348 levels total. If he doesn't have his cabal present he could round up 696 levels of characters instead (all of at least 6th level). But even with the ritual adept feat he can only coordinate 16 other characters. He probably won't be able to get the full +60 bonus unless a fair chunk of his cabal is present. +60 sounds like a lot, but there will be more than 150 people involved; it should be a lot. What about a character without the leadership feat? Can he lead a ritual? I'd say that his level counts for half in determining his effective leadership score, and thus the maximum bonus he could get. You can tinker with this. [S]Maybe at least half the participants have to be spellcasters.[/S] [edit]The hit dice from cohorts have to be spellcasters.[/edit] They each expend one of their highest level spell slots. If this is not an epic spell slot then their hit dice only counts as twice the spell level of the slot (and may be further reduced if not a cohort). (A 25th level wizard contributing an 8th level slot counts only as a 16 level participant.) Non-spellcasters can participate, but they are [i]fatigued[/i] from the effort (for a few minutes at least). Characters with the Cooperative Spell feat count as cohorts for the purpose of joining a cabal. Or whatever. Anyway, that's my take on things. [sblock=Leadership, total levels in cabal, number of members in the cabal] 2 1 1 3 2 1 4 3 1 5 3 1 6 4 1 7 5 1 8 5 1 9 6 1 10 7 1 11 7 1 12 8 1 13 9 1 14 10 1 15 10 1 16 11 1 17 13 2 18 13 2 19 16 3 20 18 4 21 22 5 22 24 6 23 26 7 24 27 7 25 35 10 26 36 10 27 39 12 28 41 13 29 44 15 30 46 16 31 61 21 32 63 22 33 67 25 34 74 28 35 78 31 36 101 38 37 105 41 38 113 45 39 117 48 40 129 53 41 134 57 42 142 61 43 174 71 44 179 74 45 187 79 46 192 82 47 206 89 48 214 93 49 219 97 50 236 103 51 246 109 52 251 112 53 263 118 54 268 121 55 278 127 56 316 136 57 321 140 58 329 144 59 343 151 60 348 154 61 356 159 62 361 162 63 380 170 64 388 174 65 393 178 66 405 183 67 415 189 68 420 192 69 443 200 70 448 203 71 458 209 72 470 214 73 475 218 74 483 222 75 502 230[/SBLOCK] So looking at this chart you could see that a character with a leadership of 65 leads a cabal with 393 levels (total) and 178 individuals. If for some reason only 300 levels worth of followers were available, the maximum bonus would be +55 (the first line with less than 300 total levels). And so on. [edit] The payoff is very nearly linear at lower levels, and pretty close to how it should be. A wizard with a leadership of 20 gets two companions to contribute 9th level spells in an impromptu cabal. Their levels count as 18 (as twice the spell level) and see they aren't cohorts/followers the value is halved. Still, between them that's enough to provide 18 levels, and so the wizard gets the +20 ritual bonus. If there were only one such companion then he'd still get a +13 bonus. Too good? Maybe, but I don't think it will break anything. And it is pretty hard to get those high bonuses; a lot of people have to gather in one spot. [/QUOTE]

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