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<blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3059362" data-attributes="member: 141">I'm thinking about what someone should be able to do against an equal KR monster who fails the save.&nbsp; Say we are talking about level 12, when a wizard has a 24d6 disintegrate (84 hp damage).&nbsp; Save DC 22 or thereabouts.[code]KR 12 Monsters - Fort save and hit pointsGlabrezu&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +18&nbsp; 174 hpYoung Gold Dragon&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +12&nbsp; 133 hp12-headed Cry/pyro Hydra&nbsp; +13&nbsp; 129 hpNightshade (Nightwing)&nbsp; &nbsp; +9&nbsp;&nbsp; 144 hpNoble Salamander&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +12&nbsp; 112 hpElder Xorn&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +13&nbsp; 130 hpColossal Spider&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +20&nbsp; 208 hp[/code]On the one hand, a 12th level wizard has a fair chance of affecting these equal-KR monsters.&nbsp; Average fort save is just under +14, so he affects them 35% of the time.&nbsp; Unfortunately, a failed save is not as significant.&nbsp; 84 hp done to a creature with an average of 147 hp is 57%.&nbsp; 17.5 damage (from 5d6 on a successful save) is only 12%.&nbsp; Mean damage is 41.25 (~28%) since the creatures will save more than half the time.893 hp is the average hp for the epic monsters mentioned above.&nbsp; A 276d6 attack does 966 on a failed save and 483 if the creature takes half damage.&nbsp; 483/893 is 54%.&nbsp; This looks too high; it's like a 12th level wizard always doing full damage with a disintegrate.While this is not an exhaustive analysis, it looks to me like 1/4 damage on a failed save would be balanced.&nbsp; The mean damage will be about 25% the hit points of an equal KR opponent, which is about what a 12th level wizard could expect (on average) against KR 12 opponents.&nbsp; (The epic mage will do a little more, since the opponents will fail occasionally- but I don't think that will be much more).Suppose that an additional benefit of Metannihilator would be to raise the save from Fort: 1/8 to Fort: 1/4.&nbsp; And suppose that an epic wizard also takes Herald of the Eschaton.&nbsp; Then it looks to me as if he could do about as well with his destroy spells as a generic 12th level wizard could do with his disintegrate.There's probably flaws in this argument, but it looks to me like the epic wizard needs a bit of a boost; about two feat-equivalents worth.[edit]This analysis goes out the window entirely if changes are made to how saving throws work.&nbsp; For instance, if the split DC proposal is accepted for epic spells then things look a lot better for the epic wizard.&nbsp; At least the two feats he spent improving his destroy spells now result in considerable improvement over equal-KR threats, compared to the benchmark set by a generalist 12th level wizard against KR 12 threats.&nbsp; The epic wizard actually has a chance of killing an equal KR opponent.[edit2]You know, based on the reasoning in post 119, I can't help but think that the duration of auroch's strength is too low.&nbsp; If this were an actual spell, it would probably last 10 minutes per level.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cheiromancer, post: 3059362, member: 141"] I'm thinking about what someone should be able to do against an equal KR monster who fails the save. Say we are talking about level 12, when a wizard has a 24d6 disintegrate (84 hp damage). Save DC 22 or thereabouts. [code]KR 12 Monsters - Fort save and hit points Glabrezu +18 174 hp Young Gold Dragon +12 133 hp 12-headed Cry/pyro Hydra +13 129 hp Nightshade (Nightwing) +9 144 hp Noble Salamander +12 112 hp Elder Xorn +13 130 hp Colossal Spider +20 208 hp[/code] On the one hand, a 12th level wizard has a fair chance of affecting these equal-KR monsters. Average fort save is just under +14, so he affects them 35% of the time. Unfortunately, a failed save is not as significant. 84 hp done to a creature with an average of 147 hp is 57%. 17.5 damage (from 5d6 on a successful save) is only 12%. Mean damage is 41.25 (~28%) since the creatures will save more than half the time. 893 hp is the average hp for the epic monsters mentioned above. A 276d6 attack does 966 on a failed save and 483 if the creature takes half damage. 483/893 is 54%. This looks too high; it's like a 12th level wizard always doing full damage with a [i]disintegrate[/i]. While this is not an exhaustive analysis, it looks to me like 1/4 damage on a failed save would be balanced. The mean damage will be about 25% the hit points of an equal KR opponent, which is about what a 12th level wizard could expect (on average) against KR 12 opponents. (The epic mage will do a little more, since the opponents will fail occasionally- but I don't think that will be much more). Suppose that an additional benefit of Metannihilator would be to raise the save from Fort: 1/8 to Fort: 1/4. And suppose that an epic wizard also takes Herald of the Eschaton. Then it looks to me as if he could do about as well with his [i]destroy[/i] spells as a generic 12th level wizard could do with his [i]disintegrate[/i]. There's probably flaws in this argument, but it looks to me like the epic wizard needs a bit of a boost; about two feat-equivalents worth. [edit]This analysis goes out the window entirely if changes are made to how saving throws work. For instance, if the split DC proposal is accepted for epic spells then things look a lot better for the epic wizard. At least the two feats he spent improving his [i]destroy[/i] spells now result in considerable improvement over equal-KR threats, compared to the benchmark set by a generalist 12th level wizard against KR 12 threats. The epic wizard actually has a chance of killing an equal KR opponent. [edit2]You know, based on the reasoning in post 119, I can't help but think that the duration of [i]auroch's strength[/i] is too low. If this were an actual spell, it would probably last 10 minutes per level. [/QUOTE]

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