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<blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3060977" data-attributes="member: 141">I have a link in my toolbar to <a href="http://wwww.d20srd.org" target="_blank">http://wwww.d20srd.org</a> .&nbsp; They look like 3.5 monsters: the format of the DR is /epic instead of /+7.Hmmm.&nbsp; Your subsequent post about a continuous buff item kinda undercuts your point; either characters should be able to have this kind of bonus available to them all day, or they shouldn't.&nbsp; If the former, then there's nothing wrong with a long-lasting anibuff.&nbsp; If the latter, then you can't base your design decisions on everyone having +16 or +20 anibuff items.&nbsp; I suppose there is room to parse the difference between having +6 at 20th level or +10, but I would think that this is an appropriate benefit, even at 20th level, for expending two 6th level slots each day.The split DC patch doesn't obviate these items, nor does it require them.&nbsp; Let's assume the wizard has a 30 Intelligence.&nbsp; The pattern of the table would be similar for other scores.[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Without a headband +20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; With a headband +20saves for a split epic spell&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 40/20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 50/30roll needed (+9 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 20roll needed (+14 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16roll needed (+19 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11roll needed (+24 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11roll needed (+29 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11roll needed (+34 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11roll needed (+39 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11roll needed (+44 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6roll needed (+49 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2[/code]Single digit saves give a good chance to save in the first case, but not in the second.&nbsp; There are a wide range of creatures whose chance of making the save is 50%. Yet the headband gives a benefit vs low save creatures and against high save creatures.Compare the current system:[code]&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Without a headband +20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; With a headband +20saves for an unsplit epic spell&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 30&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 40roll needed (+9 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 20roll needed (+14 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 20roll needed (+19 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 20roll needed (+24 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16roll needed (+29 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 11roll needed (+34 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6roll needed (+39 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2roll needed (+44 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2roll needed (+49 base save)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2[/code]Here the region where saves are neither trivially easy nor impossibly hard is quite narrow.&nbsp; And the importance of having the best headband you can afford is emphasized to an unhealthy degree. I think this threatens game balance unless encounters are precisely tailored to player's abilities, something that is unrealistic in a free-wheeling epic game.And so I think the split DC system fulfills these two of your design goals:Yes, the split DCs are a new mechanic, but so is having spells based on skill ranks rather than spell level.&nbsp; The save mechanic is not practicable, imho, so can't be preserved.&nbsp; Rather it can be preserved, but at a certain cost to game balance.&nbsp; The act of introducing Split DCs won't have any ripple effects that I can see, so I'd be willing to bracket it off from our discussion. Any version of this system that I use could have split DCs and no one would be the wiser. But think about it, will you? Perhaps its charms will grow on you.[edit]Ah!&nbsp; I see you are online.&nbsp; I'll stop fiddling with the wording. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp; My last change was the intelligence of the wizard; it should be 30 instead of 20.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":o" title="Eek!&nbsp; &nbsp; :o"&nbsp; data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":o" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cheiromancer, post: 3060977, member: 141"] I have a link in my toolbar to [url]http://wwww.d20srd.org[/url] . They look like 3.5 monsters: the format of the DR is /epic instead of /+7. Hmmm. Your subsequent post about a continuous buff item kinda undercuts your point; either characters should be able to have this kind of bonus available to them all day, or they shouldn't. If the former, then there's nothing wrong with a long-lasting anibuff. If the latter, then you can't base your design decisions on everyone having +16 or +20 anibuff items. I suppose there is room to parse the difference between having +6 at 20th level or +10, but I would think that this is an appropriate benefit, even at 20th level, for expending two 6th level slots each day. The split DC patch doesn't obviate these items, nor does it require them. Let's assume the wizard has a 30 Intelligence. The pattern of the table would be similar for other scores. [code] Without a headband +20 With a headband +20 saves for a split epic spell 40/20 50/30 roll needed (+9 base save) 11 20 roll needed (+14 base save) 11 16 roll needed (+19 base save) 11 11 roll needed (+24 base save) 11 11 roll needed (+29 base save) 11 11 roll needed (+34 base save) 6 11 roll needed (+39 base save) 2 11 roll needed (+44 base save) 2 6 roll needed (+49 base save) 2 2[/code] Single digit saves give a good chance to save in the first case, but not in the second. There are a wide range of creatures whose chance of making the save is 50%. Yet the headband gives a benefit vs low save creatures and against high save creatures. Compare the current system: [code] Without a headband +20 With a headband +20 saves for an unsplit epic spell 30 40 roll needed (+9 base save) 20 20 roll needed (+14 base save) 16 20 roll needed (+19 base save) 11 20 roll needed (+24 base save) 6 16 roll needed (+29 base save) 2 11 roll needed (+34 base save) 2 6 roll needed (+39 base save) 2 2 roll needed (+44 base save) 2 2 roll needed (+49 base save) 2 2[/code] Here the region where saves are neither trivially easy nor impossibly hard is quite narrow. And the importance of having the best headband you can afford is emphasized to an unhealthy degree. I think this threatens game balance unless encounters are precisely tailored to player's abilities, something that is unrealistic in a free-wheeling epic game. And so I think the split DC system fulfills these two of your design goals: Yes, the split DCs are a new mechanic, but so is having spells based on skill ranks rather than spell level. The save mechanic is not practicable, imho, so can't be preserved. Rather it can be preserved, but at a certain cost to game balance. The act of introducing Split DCs won't have any ripple effects that I can see, so I'd be willing to bracket it off from our discussion. Any version of this system that I use could have split DCs and no one would be the wiser. But think about it, will you? Perhaps its charms will grow on you. [edit]Ah! I see you are online. I'll stop fiddling with the wording. :) My last change was the intelligence of the wizard; it should be 30 instead of 20. :o [/QUOTE]

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