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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3067516" data-attributes="member: 141">+20 SP would be the equivalent of 10 levels of metamagic, wouldn't it?  Ironic, considering that in the SRD it actually lowers the level of the spell when it overcome a specific type of immunity.  [sblock=a digression about Control Undead]You can get some very interesting results comparing the details of control undead with that of charm monster and charm person:[sblock=Control Undead]NecromancyLevel:     Sor/Wiz 2Components:     V, S, MCasting Time:     1 standard actionRange:     Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)Targets:     One undead creatureDuration:     One day/levelSaving Throw:     Will negates; see textSpell Resistance:     YesThis spell allows you some degree of control over an undead creature. Assuming the subject is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way (treat its attitude as friendly). It will not attack you while the spell lasts. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An intelligent commanded undead never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing.A nonintelligent undead creature gets no saving throw against this spell. When you control a mindless being, you can communicate only basic commands, such as “come here,” “go there,” “fight,” “stand still,” and so on. Nonintelligent undead won’t resist suicidal or obviously harmful orders.Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the commanded undead (regardless of its Intelligence) breaks the spell.Your commands are not telepathic. The undead creature must be able to hear you. [/sblock][sblock=Charm Monster]Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]Level:     Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4Target:     One living creatureDuration:     One day/levelThis spell functions like charm person, except that the effect is not restricted by creature type or size. [/sblock][sblock=Charm Person]Enchantment (Charm) [Mind-Affecting]Level:     Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1Components:     V, SCasting Time:     1 standard actionRange:     Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)Target:     One humanoid creatureDuration:     1 hour/levelSaving Throw:     Will negatesSpell Resistance:     YesThis charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming. [/sblock]Based on these spells you get all kinds of interesting results: like changing duration from hours to days is worth +1 spell level; a restriction to one type of target is worth -3 spell levels; and overcoming a specific kind of immunity (the undead immunity to mind-affecting effects) is worth +1 spell level.  Hmmm. The school changed along the way, too, from enchantment/charm to necromancy.  Are there any analogies to this spell that affect only constructs, or only plants, or only vermin?  If so, we can probably tie it all together in the control seed.  I would be hesitant to follow the pattern too closely (hours to days in only +1 spell level!?), but it might be worth more investigation.[/sblock]A suggestion about notation.  Let's call a "specific immunity to X" any immunity based on a creature's being a particular kind of thing (either an undead, or a devil, or a [fire] creature or whatever).  A "generic immunity to X" includes all the specific immunities to X.  So if a spell overcame an undead's immunity to mind-affecting effects but not a vermin's, we'd say it would be overcoming a specific immunity to mind-affecting effects.  If the spell could affect undead as well as vermin, constructs, etc., then it would be overcoming a generic immunity to mind-affecting effects.  Magical immunity, in turn, would be anything due to a spell or magic item.  Am I missing anything?  Divine immunity might be handled differently than specific immunity, I'd think.  And some categories are more general than species, but are not quite generic; the fire immunity/resistance of fiends would include demons and devils, but not fire elementals.  Maybe efreet; depends on whether every evil outsider is a fiend, I suppose.If this is a good way of describing immunity, I think it makes perfect sense for a feat to be able to overcome specific immunity, and via a CL check, magical immunity. I think Inelutable Necromancy would be a great prototype for a whole family of feats.  I think it would make sense that there be a factor that combines the "overcome specific immunity or resistance" advantage with the "only affects a specific type of creature" disadvantage.  Such a spell should be targetted, not an area.  (Although targets within an area might work). A targetted holy fire that overcomes a devil's specific fire immunity would be great, even if it could only affect devils.  However, it should be possible to modify the spell so it affects fiends (despite their resistance or immunity) but only fiends.But, unless I am missing something obvious, Music of the Gods doesn't allow anyone to cast mind-affecting epic spells on the undead, does it?  And if it is just about bardic music affecting undead, I think there is a feat in a splatbook somewhere that does this already.  I'll have to check Complete Adventurer.  Or maybe it was in Song and Silence?[edit]The feat I'm thinking from is from Libris Mortis, but I see MotG affects more than just the undead.[sblock=Requiem]Your bardic music affects undead creatures.Prerequisite: Bardic music class feature, Perform (any) 8 ranks.Benefit: You can extend the effects of your mind-affecting bardic music and virtuoso's performance abilities so that they influence even the undead. All bardic music effects on undead creatures have only half the duration they normally would against the living.Normal: Undead are usually immune to mind-influencing effects.[/sblock]Good point.  Although you could just fiddle with the modifier for suicidal commands; just note there that the "suicide" factor can't combine with the reduced duration factor.OK.  We really do have to talk about benchmarks.  Do you really want USP 80 spells to be available for routine use by 30th level characters?  I think the way to judge this effect is to consider what a 77th level wizard should be routinely capable of.  Upper_Krust suggests a wealth formula of level cubed times 100 gp- that would be 45 million gold, and 1/4 of that would buy (drumroll)... a +34 headband of intellect (it would actually be 25.32% of the expected wealth).  I'm gonna see if I can extend the tables in the ELH.... 418 million gp, enough for a +100 headband.  (Now that's an epic item!)Either way I don't see that this size of bonus is inappropriate for a 77th level character.If the problem is that this spell is easily accessible to a 30th level character, then the problem is not with the spell, it is with whatever rules allow the 30th level character to get access to it.  The way rituals work is probably what needs fixing.  The "routine" aspect of cabal magic what is problematic- there is no massive sacrifice of xp or gold that would make hugely mitigated spells uncommon.  Once a cabal assembles, it can cast as many spells as needed, as often as needed.  Maybe the rituals should only apply to certain seeds.  ****I think the switch in anibuff durations from 3.0 to 3.5 may have been an over-reaction.  Hours/level might have been too long, but minutes/level seems too short.  It encourages parties to buff their brains out, go on a quick commando mission, and then rest for the next 23 hours and 45 minutes.  It favors offense over defense, and that makes everybody fragile.  If buffs (especially protective buffs) lasted for hours, then it would make sense that the villain is buffed when the players charge in.  Conversely, it means that the players will be buffed if subjected to a surprise assault.  I think longer, stabler buffs makes more sense- perhaps you see it differently?But anyway, that's a big part of my desire to have longer buffs.</blockquote>

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