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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sepulchrave II" data-source="post: 3068353" data-attributes="member: 4303">Yep.That depends largely on the fortify seed. If one removes all strictly combat-oriented seeds from the mix because of casting-time restrictions (afflict, banish, compel, destroy, energy, harrow, slay) then the possible imbalancing effects of a cabal become far less extreme. Ritual magic is really best for more story-oriented magic, which is why its power curve needs to be steeper than other aspects of epic spellcasting. Unfortunately, it's also impossible to balance anything outside of the immediate combat framework in D&D, so we need to do a lot of guesswork.77th is stratospheric, by any standards (well, maybe not U_K's). Also 'routinely' would involve the 35+ epic feats which a character of 77th level would benefit from - there are potential synergies here that we can't even begin to comprehend. A 77th level character might routinely be expected to possess a big-ass staff of epic mitigation as well - I'm not being intentionally facetious here, just pointing out that the 'routinely' is a lot more than just 80 ranks in Spellcraft.At 30th-40th level it's more graspable - more so, because we're the ones drawing the boundaries. It seems kind of nonsensical to gauge the powers of a 40th level character based on the hypothetical abilities of an 80th level character - the quantity of epic feats (most of which are, as yet, unwritten) alone make this an impossible judgement. I think we're better off defining the abilities of a 40th level character and extrapolating from there. I have no objection to the principle of (barely achievable at X = routine at 2X), but we have to understand that we are defining those limits as we go along.If we return for a moment to the 20 minute base buff (auroch's strength), and really do everything to make it extreme.40th level character (43). Seed +14. Extend to 24 hrs (+142). Increase bonus to +28 (+36). Cabal Leadership +60 (-60). 1 hour casting (-8). 50,000gp power component (-10). 10,000XP burn (-40). 15 Backlash (-30) (Autoimmolator). I think that we could both agree that the resource drain here makes this barely achievable (and barely practical). Add an artifact focus, and there is your +33 Cha (I'm 1 short). I could argue that a 24hr +33 buff to a stat should be routine for an 80th level character based on that - i.e. a 20 minute base duration.The problem with the above is, of course, the massive stacking of mitigating factors - if the buff only lasts 12 hrs, then the bonus to Cha can be inflated to +64, and so on: but given the drain on the caster's resources, is it really an issue?I think some kind of exhaustion after a cabal is invoked in spellcasting might be in order, though.</blockquote>

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