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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sepulchrave II" data-source="post: 3081441" data-attributes="member: 4303">This is really hard to articulate.Whether or not you use only full factors - i.e. double the value of an equivalent metamagic feat - depends on the other benefits that a spell of level X possesses over a related spell of level X-Y. These benefits are implicit in the level of the spell - e.g. damage caps or Save DCs. Himafaf is an approximation, which averages the effects of spell level-dependent benefits and metamagic; but if you try to apply it to (say) the difference between fireball and dbf it fails: it takes 10 levels of pure metamagic to replicate the difference (enhanced, delayed, +3 DC) which corresponds to 20 full factors or 10 half-factors. Applying 10 half-factors to the [energy] seed should net you this difference: +10d6 (+5), +3DC (+3), delayed (+3) - like I say, its an approximation.The problem with epic seeds is that one (or more) of these normally spell-level dependent functions has already been determined - i.e. the save DC (all epic spells are DC 20 + modifier). The way to eliminate this disparity is to assume that all roots are 10th-level spells cast by a 20th-level caster; if the DC is already set as that of a 10th-level spell, so other spell parameters should be. The alternative would be to have a floating DC which is determined by the root spell's effect. The problem with [afflict] and [destroy] as detailed above is not so much their use of full factors, but the omission of other expected spell-level dependent benefits: [afflict] should have a clause which says "only a wish, miracle or epic spell which uses the [dispel] seed can remove the effects of a target subject to the [afflict] seed" - this would be a predicted benefit of a 10th-level spell. Likewise, a 10th-level spell in the disintegrate family - i.e. the [destroy] seed - should (IMHO) be able to penetrate a prismatic sphere or an antimagic shell: I think that an opposed caster level check would be appropriate in these cases, though.If these predicted (unweighed) benefits are included, then I think himafaf no longer becomes necessary, and we can use full factors when seed-tinkering. The [dispel] seed is a good example of a seed which already includes unweighed benefits - i.e. it can affect anything, even things not normally subject to dispel magic. But I think that [dispel] would be balanced if its base caster level check was at +20 (+10 full factors) and received some other +4 factor perk (+1 range increment; whatever). At an SP of 24, it really would be a 10th-level spell.Does that make sense?</blockquote>

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