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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3088034" data-attributes="member: 141">[PLAIN]Way more oomph for [summon][/PLAIN]For [summon] I'd take a look at shambler.ShamblerConjuration (Creation)Level:     Drd 9, Plant 9Components:     V, SCasting Time:     1 standard actionRange:     Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)Effect:     Three or more shambling mounds, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart; see textDuration:     Seven days or seven months (D); see textSaving Throw:     NoneSpell Resistance:     NoThe shambler spell creates 1d4+2 shambling mounds with 11 HD each. The creatures willingly aid you in combat or battle, perform a specific mission, or serve as bodyguards. The creatures remain with you for seven days unless you dismiss them. If the shamblers are created only for guard duty, however, the duration of the spell is seven months. In this case, the shamblers can only be ordered to guard a specific site or location. Shamblers summoned to guard duty cannot move outside the spell’s range, which is measured from the point where each first appeared.The shamblers have resistance to fire as normal shambling mounds do only if the terrain is rainy, marshy, or damp. An 11 HD shambling mound is still CR 6; although they are not on the list for summon monster VI they probably could be.  Summon monster VIII can summon 1d4+1 creatures from a SM VI list, close enough to 1d4+2.  So this is basically an 8th level spell- except for the duration.  Rounds ==> minutes ==> 10s of minutes ==> hours ==> days.  Sure it's not 20 days, but it is about 10 times as long as 20 hours.  Maybe call it a half a step.  3 1/2 steps of duration is +14 SP.  And it's medium range instead of short, so another +2 SP.  1 standard action to cast instead of one round, so +2 SP (from the base SM VIII).  That's +18 SP.  But it's not flexible; it can only summon shamblers.  Even if you say -10 SP,  the +8 SP total makes it a strong 9th level spell (8 SP / 6 = 1.333, so it is really a 9 and 1/3 level spell).  If a summon monster kind of flexibility is worth +4 SP (and so losing it is a -4 SP mitigation) then this is really an epic spell. The fact that they are plants (not outsiders or elementals) isn't a factor, but the fact that they aren't hedged out by a protection from evil probably should be.  Heck, it's an epic spell; we'll waive it.But if they can be hedged out by a protection from evil, that should be a mitigating factor.Note also that if the shambling mounds are on guard duty, the duration is days ==> weeks ==> months; guard duty appears to be a -8 factor (if each duration step is +4).A different way of analyzing shambler would calculate that 1d4+2 (average 4.5) CR 6 creatures (and at 11 HD they are almost CR 7) should be a challenge equivalent to that of a CR 13 or 14 creature.  (Recall that challenge is the sum of the squares of the CRs).  That's like a summon monster XI; then add factors increasing the duration.  Crazy stuff.Would you agree that the [summon] seed has to exceed the shambler spell, even if only by a little, if it is to be an epic spell?  Remember: shiver-worthy.[edit]I'm thinking CR 11 creature summoned, long range, standard action casting time, duration 20 days.  -16 SP in reduced duration would bring it down to 20 rounds, and be a CR 18 monster (or group of monsters whose challenge is equal to a CR 18).  That's with no flexibility, assuming that shambler should be an epic spell, and using the challenge method of comparing groups of monsters (so the 4 shambling mounds would be CR 14).Make the range close range and you could summon marilith for 20 minutes. Wouldn't that be a cool spell?  Make it a one round casting time and only 20 rounds (and still close range) and it could be summon pit fiend instead.  That would also be very cool.</blockquote>

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