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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sepulchrave II" data-source="post: 3093430" data-attributes="member: 4303">Re: elemental swarmYeah, I'm still on this one. It's been bugging me all day.If the "maximum hp per HD" clause is worth +1 CR for each elemental across the board - not unreasonable, I think - then the total CR of the group is (sq.rt.) 484 = 22.An SP24 1-action / 1200-ft / 200 min spell which targets one type of creature (although see below) without the inconvenient wait associated with elemental swarm (major, -10) should snag a CR 14. It raises a number of interesting points.1) Does the choice from the four elemental types offer any real benefit to the caster?2) I'm wondering whether we should include a third limitation/flexibilty factor at -/+6, and maybe a fourth at +/-2. The utility of a choice from 12 potential summonees seems too large for simply +4. And +4 feels to punitive for the ability to toggle between two effects (say blindness or deafness) or between the caster's choice of four elemental types in elemental swarm.3) Is there any way that we can weigh - objectively and with an assigned numerical value - this limitation/flexibility, so that it can apply to all seeds, or does it need to be handled on a seed-by seed basis? Based on investigation so far, I would tentatively suggest the following:+2 (minor): A choice of up to two effects, or up to four closely-related, thematically-linked effects. E.g. the [summon] seed allowing a choice of up to four different elementals, four different devils, four different angels, four different demons or two unrelated creatures (a coatl and an azer, say); the [afflict] seed rendering a target deaf or blind; the [energy] seed allowing a choice of two energy types.+4 (moderate): A choice of up to four effects, or up to twelve closely-related, thematically-linked effects. E.g. the [summon] seed allowing a choice from a list of twelve demons or from a list of four unrelated creatures; the [afflict] seed being free to use any of its forms; a choice of any basic energy type in an [energy] spell. The choice of any mental ability to be buffed by [fortify].+6 (major): A choice of up to (twelve?) effects, or any number of closely-related, thematically-linked effects. E.g. the [summon] seed allowing a choice from a list of any twelve unrelated creatures, or any demon, or any angel; the [energy] seed free to choose any energy type, including typeless (assuming an additional +8 had been paid to allow typeless energy). The choice of any ability score to be buffed by [fortify].+10 (sweeping): This one is much harder to define. Free use of [summon]. Free use of energy type and shape in [energy].This may prove a useful guideline, and it may not. I guess as other seeds present options, the criteria will change - I expect there will be a lot of haggling over whether the utility offered by a spell merits a moderate or a major increase in flexibility: this is a good thing. But I'm feeling that restricting ourselves to +4 and +10 will be more problematic in the long run.Anyway, back to [summon]. This version incorporates my ideas from above. I've dropped the power component as preferred mitigation - this feels better suited to [call]. I've added backlash as preferred mitigation, because the physical act of summoning often seems to leave the caster drained in literature - suggesting that Elric (or whoever) used backlash. Bearing in mind that backlash can be a tad subtler than black fire cascading over the caster.[Summon] Conjuration (Summoning) Root Spell: Summon monster suite, elemental swarm Preferred Mitigation: Backlash, XP Burn Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 1200 ft. Effect: Summoned creature or creatures no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart, whose combined CR does not exceed 15Duration: 200 minutes (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No This seed can summon one or more outsiders or elementals whose combined CR is 15 or less: it is recommended that the challenge method is used when determining the combined CR of a group creatures. They appear where the caster designates and act immediately, on his or her turn. They attack the caster’s opponents to the best of their ability. If the caster can communicate with the creatures, he or she can direct them not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. The exact type of creatures are determined in the spell development process, or the appropriate flexibility factor included (see below).When the spell that summoned a creature ends, and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast which remain in effect expire. A summoned creature may not use any innate summoning abilities it may have or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any innate planar travel or teleportation abilities that it might possess. It cannot cast any spells that would cost it XP, or use any spell-like abilites which would cost it XP if they were spells. When a caster develops a spell with the [summon] seed that summons an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, the completed spell is also of that type.Factor: For each +1 CR of the summoned outsiders or elementals, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +2. To summon a creature from another monster type (such as dragons or aberrations) increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +4.Major Flexibility: To create a spell which allows the caster to choose from a pool of up to any 12 predetermined individual creatures who otherwise fit the spell's criteria; or alternatively to choose from any number of closely-related creatures (such as demons or angels) within the CR limit, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +6. Sweeping Flexibility: To create a spell which allows the caster to summon any creature of up to CR 15 at the moment the spell is cast, increase the Spellcraft Prerequisite by +10.Special: A character with any summon nature's ally spell on his or her class spell list may summon animals, plant creatures, feys and magical beasts without incurring the normal surcharge for summoning a monster from a type other than outsider or elemental.</blockquote>

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