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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3093487" data-attributes="member: 141">And conversely I know I don't have to worry too much about whether an idea is overpowered, because you'd shoot it down in a moment if it was. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Still, we should be wary of sliding into a player-DM dynamic.  A DM finds it easier to relax a restriction than to impose one, and so he'll give away too little; erring on the side of caution.  A player will try to get away with murder, so he'll try to loosen those restrictions.  But this is not, in fact, our relationship, and thank goodness; it would be very difficult to design a spell system if such a dynamic existed.I think that both our goals is to hit the right power level, and regard being underpowered as just as bad as being overpowered.  I'll try to curb my inner munchkin, and you'll try to restrain your tight-fistedness.I was thinking about those anomalous 9th level spells.  Shambler would come in as SP 32 if my calculations are correct (and I'm allowed exponential range and duration factors)- +2 for medium range, +10 for two and half duration steps (20 minutes ==> 200 minutes ==> 20 hours => 1 week), -4 for being a CR 14 challenge.  Maybe 30 for druids and clerics with the plant domain; a solid 11th level spell.[edit] with duration factors being reduced in cost, it is a SP 25 spell for druids; still more than the SP 22 that it should be, but not too far off the power-curve.  Give it a 1 minute casting time and it's good. [/edit]What would wish come in as?  A 9th level spell with a 5000 xp cost should be SP 32. It can duplicate non-forbidden arcane spells of level 8 (SP 20) or less.  If "extreme flexibility" is worth +10, and 250 xp = 1 SP of "raw power" then that would work out quite nicely; a wish would be a strong 9th level spell (4 SP more than it should be); balanced, perhaps, by the possiblity that greedy wishes will be twisted.  Huh.  I didn't think it would come out so close.  How about a "greater wish" - could you have a SP 39 spell that will duplicate any spell of USP 24 or less?  I'm tempted to say that 1 SP of "flex factor" should cost double; so that a spell that duplicates any USP 24 spell should be priced at SP 48.  But that 250 xp = 1 SP could be used to reduce the cost.  A 2000 xp payment = 8 SP of "flex factor", and the other 16 SP would be priced double; the result would be a SP 32 spell that, at the cost of 2000 xp, could duplicate any USP 24 effect.  Does that strike you as reasonable?  Arcane access fees would be additional.This analysis supports the notion of a 1000 xp "arcane access" fee; if 1000 xp are spent on arcane access to a cleric spell, then 4000 xp are left over to be spent on "raw power" - that would be 16 SP, enough for a 6th level spell on another class list.  Which is what the description of wish says.  Strictly speaking the resurrection of a dead character is anomolous; they shoudn't be able to recreate a SP 26 effect spell that requires an arcane access fee.  I'm sure there is some deep insight in here some where about exactly what you can do with pure xp; the fact that the character raised pays a level worth of experience is probably relevant too.  I'm just going to set it aside for now.The example of wish also suggests that the creation of valuable items be linked to the spending of xp at a rate of 5 gp = 1 xp.  Although creating magic items at the rate of twice the normal xp would make it better; approaching 12.5 gp = 1 xp for very powerful items.  (100 000 gp item, normally costing 4000 xp, instead costs 8000 + 5000 xp = 13 000; about 7 gp = 1 xp).  Hmmm.[edit]Your revised [summon] seed makes the shambler effect come in as only SP 26 (24 + 6 for 1.5 duration steps, -2 for medium, -2 for CR 14).  Which seems fair; shambler is unusually powerful for a 9th level spell, but maybe not SP 30 powerful.  It should probably take a minute to cast (-4 mitigating factor) or something.I like it.  The different lines of reasoning seem to be converging on the same point. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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