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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3095824" data-attributes="member: 141">I'm very doubtful about the proposal for [summon].  This is how I see your argument:  Summon monster IX can get a CR 13 monster, and if the +8 major flexibility of the spell is turned into increased CR that would be CR 17; add +1 CR (to make it a 10th level spell) and you have CR 18.  Which, at long range and 200 minutes duration, would be CR 14.  Which is allegedly a prettier number than 13.Thing is, the CR 13 monster from SM IX is a fiendish monstrous spider, not a glabrezu or gelugon.  If you look at the true fiends, the spell summons a barbed devil (CR 11), hezrou (CR 11), bebilith (CR 10) or a night hag (CR 9).  If you used these monsters, the base CR for your summon spell might be CR 12.  Which is a much nicer number than 14; it goes very neatly into 24, and fits smoothly with the +1 CR = +2 SP. Or this USP 24 spell could summon a specific CR 16 monster.  Again, a nice number (2/3 of 24).A PC's summon monster X (1 action/20-round duration/75-ft. spell) could have a cherry picked list of 12 CR 13 monsters, which I think would be quite an improvement over summon monster IX; in this selection you'd have the epic jump.  The cherry picking alone would be worth about a +2 CR, (cf the CR 5 djinni in summon monster VII). I don't think elemental swarm provides as much support for your position as you say;  assuming a 1 action/20-round duration/75-ft. spell with a specific target, I get CR 17 extrapolating from elemental swarm, not CR 19.Regarding elemental swarm:[code]2d4 large elementals     5 x 6 x 6 = 1801d4 huge elementals    2.5 x 8 x 8 = 1601 greater elemental    1 x 10 x 10 = 100Total challenge                      440= CR 21[/code]I'm boosting the CRs by +1 for the max hit dice.  The spell includes minor flexibility (+2), medium range (+2), 200 minutes (+4), 10 minute casting time (-6), great inconvenience (-10), area of druidic expertise -2; a net of -10, the equivalent of -5 CR.  So this could yield a single, specific CR 16 monster at 9th level; extrapolating to SP 24, it would be a 17.  If you use Upper_Krust's numbers, you get[code]2d4 large elementals       5 x 8 x 8 = 3201d4 huge elementals    2.5 x 14 x 14 = 4901 greater elemental      1 x 17 x 17 = 289Total challenge                       1099= CR 33 => KR 22[/code]A trifle less, actually, since the +3.5 hp per hd is less than +0.7 CR in his system, not +1 CR.  Anyway, it's more like CR 17 or *maybe* 18, not 19.  Even if it wasn't kinda anomolous.Maybe you could say that elementals and fiendish/celestial animals and vermin all are treated as one CR lower (unless this would reduce the CR to below 4)?  That makes the spell match elemental swarm and elemental monolith a lot better.  I don't think the system should cater to the desires of 21st level spellcasters.  Who knows if they'll even take Epic Spellcasting right off the bat?  They might take AMC instead.  Or if they take Epic Spellcasting, who says they would research [summon]? If they wait till 23rd level, they'll have an AMC to provide a -2, and another 2 ranks of spellcraft.  That's CR 18 right there, and CR 20 is just within reach.  Why shouldn't the prospect of summoning a balor tantalize a 23rd or 24th level caster?Re: Magnum OpusI like the "spontaneous suite" kind of thing.  I would recommend that this be how spontaneous casters perform epic magic; each epic spell slot comes with an epic spell, and they can cheaply research changes to it, and develop a very flexible suite.  But only casters who prepare spells can research radically different spells to cast with their single epic spell slot; if a spontaneous caster wants to develop a different sort of spell, they have to take another feat.  This will parallel the flexibility of wizards over sorcerers into epic levels.  Wizards can have any number of spells to potentially prepare in a spell slot, but sorcerers have very few.Re: PersistentI like the coincidence that +6 (from Persistent Spell) matches the cost for +3 steps from rounds to hours.  I say we go for it.However, I would like some way of making very short duration spells that are a *lot* more powerful than 20 round buffs; certainly more than +6 in factors better than an all-day buff.  Things that will last one or two rounds, can be cast as swift actions, but which are very powerful.  Two, three or four times as powerful as an all-day buff. I would also like a way that an all-day buff could be dismissed in exchange for a one-round boost; not as big as a swift spell designed for the purpose, but pretty big.</blockquote>

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