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<blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3097177" data-attributes="member: 141">This is for the base 8th level spell, right? (SP 20?)&nbsp; I presume the cleric is calling a pit fiend (CR 20, 18 HD).&nbsp; The &quot;determine specific target creature&quot; should probably be +8; that makes the final SP come out to be 24, and makes the flexibility almost-sweeping.That analysis looks compelling, but it yields a [call] seed that is plainly superior to a [summon] seed.&nbsp; A called CR 14 creature (+8), at short range (-4) and 20 minutes duration (-4) with almost-sweeping flexibility (built in) is SP 24. A summoned CR 14 creature (+4) at short range (-4) and 20 minutes duration (-2) and almost-sweeping flexibility (+8) is SP 30.&nbsp; Add the fact that called creatures are superior to summoned creatures in their capabilities...I think if you added the CR of the called creature in again, (i.e. if this called CR 14 creature were SP 38) then it might be OK.&nbsp; At 24 USP, a CR 8 at long range and 200 minutes duration (or short range and 20 days duration), with +1 CR = +3 SP would do nicely.&nbsp; That's with a great deal of choice (corresponding in value to the almost-sweeping of [summon]).&nbsp; Without it you could probably get another +2 CR; I'd say giving up the choice would be worth a -6 mitigating factor.This flexibility is the big difference between ally and binding, isn't it?&nbsp; Well, a bound outsider is a lot less tractable than an ally.&nbsp; So you pay for the flexibility, but you also have to account for the fact that you can get a max HD creature with a binding, but you'll average a lower CR with the ally.&nbsp; I think SP = CR * 3 works fine.That 8th level spell (SP 20) has -16 points in mitigating factors, -22 given that there isn't a choice, and so on average will get a CR 14 creature.&nbsp; Usually some sort of devil, but elementals aren't unheard of; a pit fiend would be quite rare.&nbsp; The average CR would often be a bit higher, considering that there would normally be ethical sympathy (worth -2 or -4 or so in mitigating factors).&nbsp; Oh, and this is probably a special area of expertise, so probably another -2.&nbsp; A CR 16 average should be expected.&nbsp; That sounds about right.Anyway, I'd suggest that at short range and 20 days duration, [call] yield a CR 8 creature; and that each +1 CR = +3 SP.&nbsp; Unfortunately that makes Call Graz'zt a very difficult USP 90, or 96 if the duration of the call is extended to 20 000 days.&nbsp; Could Fillein and his cabal manage that?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cheiromancer, post: 3097177, member: 141"] This is for the base 8th level spell, right? (SP 20?) I presume the cleric is calling a pit fiend (CR 20, 18 HD). The "determine specific target creature" should probably be +8; that makes the final SP come out to be 24, and makes the flexibility almost-sweeping. That analysis looks compelling, but it yields a [call] seed that is plainly superior to a [summon] seed. A called CR 14 creature (+8), at short range (-4) and 20 minutes duration (-4) with almost-sweeping flexibility (built in) is SP 24. A summoned CR 14 creature (+4) at short range (-4) and 20 minutes duration (-2) and almost-sweeping flexibility (+8) is SP 30. Add the fact that called creatures are superior to summoned creatures in their capabilities... I think if you added the CR of the called creature in again, (i.e. if this called CR 14 creature were SP 38) then it might be OK. At 24 USP, a CR 8 at long range and 200 minutes duration (or short range and 20 days duration), with +1 CR = +3 SP would do nicely. That's with a great deal of choice (corresponding in value to the almost-sweeping of [summon]). Without it you could probably get another +2 CR; I'd say giving up the choice would be worth a -6 mitigating factor. This flexibility is the big difference between [i]ally[/i] and [i]binding[/i], isn't it? Well, a bound outsider is a lot less tractable than an ally. So you pay for the flexibility, but you also have to account for the fact that you can get a max HD creature with a [i]binding[/i], but you'll average a lower CR with the [i]ally[/i]. I think SP = CR * 3 works fine. That 8th level spell (SP 20) has -16 points in mitigating factors, -22 given that there isn't a choice, and so on average will get a CR 14 creature. Usually some sort of devil, but elementals aren't unheard of; a pit fiend would be quite rare. The average CR would often be a bit higher, considering that there would normally be ethical sympathy (worth -2 or -4 or so in mitigating factors). Oh, and this is probably a special area of expertise, so probably another -2. A CR 16 average should be expected. That sounds about right. Anyway, I'd suggest that at short range and 20 days duration, [call] yield a CR 8 creature; and that each +1 CR = +3 SP. Unfortunately that makes [i]Call Graz'zt[/i] a very difficult USP 90, or 96 if the duration of the call is extended to 20 000 days. Could Fillein and his cabal manage that? [/QUOTE]

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