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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3110088" data-attributes="member: 141">I don't really want to fragment the seeds.  If a seed represents a fundamental building block of magic, then a character should either be able to get it, or not; they shouldn't be able to get part of it.  They may appear fragmentary in how they manifest at pre-epic levels, but they represent a deeper unity that is discovered by very advanced spellcasters.Maybe we say that a LG cleric could [summon] a demon if he wished, but that this would be a huge alignment violation and so he shouldn't do it.  Similarly an Air cleric could cast an acid spell, but that this would displease their patron deity.But take the Luck domain.  What seeds map up to this conglomeration?  I see [ward], [fortify], [dispel], [delude], [reflect], [foresee] and whatever miracle belongs to. [sblock=Luck Domain]1 Entropic Shield: Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.2 Aid: +1 on attack rolls, +1 against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).3 Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.4 Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.5 Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.6 Mislead: Turns you invisible and creates illusory double.7 Spell Turning: Reflect 1d4+6 spell levels back at caster.8 Moment of Prescience: You gain insight bonus on single attack roll, check, or save.9 Miracle: Requests a deity’s intercession.[/sblock]If being able to cast a base spell of a seed gives access to a seed, then many seeds will be clerical.  That's because most spell seeds have many base spells, and these are divided among both clerical and arcane lists.  If you require multiple spells in a seed to get access you have a problem with seeds like [reflect], that have only one base seed.We haven't been very careful about listing all the base spells for the seeds.  [Foresee] lists divination, but commune, vision and legend lore should be there too.  I don't think moment of prescience is modeled by any current seed, but it would probably end up in [foresee].But whatever kind of unity a domain might have, I don't think it reflects or reveals the unity of the seeds.  So domains shouldn't influence what seeds characters have access to.  A possible exception might be [life] and [heal]; these only have divine base seeds, so these aspects of magic might be accessible only by divine casters.I still like the notion of capping the system on the basis of divine ranks.  I'm thinking of U_K's Immortal's Handbook system, where the first divine ranks are as follows:Disciple: 1Prophet: 2Hero-deity: 3Quasi-deity: 4Demi-deity: 6Lesser deity: 8Intermediate deity: 12Greater deity: 16Elder one: 24Old one: 32First one: 48Demiurge: 64 to 128Time Lord: 200High Lord: 400etc.Disciples and prophets can't grant clerical spells.  Basically you have to be a demi-deity or better to grant 9th level spells.  So a cap of 20 + DivR would mean that any cleric who can cast 9th level spells would be able to cast epic spells too; the earliest they would run into the cap would be with SP 26.Clerics with no divine patron would treat the divine rank of their patron as 0.  Then have a series of feats:Divine augmentation I: Pre-requisite: Spellcraft 24.  Increase patron's effective Divine Rank by +4 (or to Divine Rank 8, whichever is greater).  Divine augmentation II: Prerequisite: Divine Augmentation I, Spellcraft 30.  Increase patron's effective Divine Rank by +8 (or to Divine Rank 24, whichever is greater). This replaces Divine Augmentation I.Divine Augmentation III:  Pre-requisite: Prerequisite: Divine Augmentation I and II, Spellcraft 42. Increase patron's effective Divine Rank by +16 (or to Divine Rank 48, whichever is greater). This replaces the Divine Augmentation I and II.I think the subsequent bonuses should be +32, +48, +64 etc. The fixed values are to gradually eliminate the difference between characters who started out with patrons of different divine ranks.  When you are 40th level you won't be drawing your power from a piddly demi-god anyway. Those are the lines I'm thinking of.[edit]Instead of Spellcraft, it should be Knowledge (Religion).  Or Knowledge (Nature) for druids.</blockquote>

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