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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3110552" data-attributes="member: 141">I still think that the 2*KR meta seed could handle transmorgrifications. [edit] This is not incompatible with it involving an aggregate.  I just don't see how aggregates help the analysis any. [/edit]But first you need to consider one confusing feature of Upper_Krust's challenge rating system, namely the double standard applied to PCs; their KR is their level, but NPCs are given a KR according to their level x 2/3.  I think part of it has to do with the fact that NPCs have nowhere near as much treasure as PCs; there is also a disparity caused by the PCs control over a character versus a DM's control over a character.  But wealth is about 1/3 of a PCs challenge rating, and you have to take it into account.Anyway, if you use a monster as a PC, you should use its CR without multiplying by 2/3.  I just noticed that Upper_Krust evaluates the lich template as +7.71; That means that a 21st level wizard (KR 21) is becoming a KR 28 creature.  (28.71, actually)  The 2*KR formula would peg the resulting effect as about SP 57.  Although you wouldn't expect the character's wealth to change as a result of the transformation the character will be tougher and able to kill tougher monsters and earn bigger treasures.  So I wouldn't discount the KR bonus according the normal formula of KR = CR * 2/3.  In this case, KR = CR.Interestingly enough, this analysis yields a SP of 25 for an 11th level NPC seeking to transform into a lich. (CR 18.71 * 2/3, doubled) This can easily be mitigated into the range of 6th level spell (SP 16).  So non-epic transformations into a lich are possible.  An 11th level PC would face a base SP of 37, which is a lot more difficult; this merely reinforces the idea that lichdom is not really for PCs.  Of course the extension of epic spells into non-epic levels is a theoretical exercise to see what should, or should not, be possible; the characters don't actually use epic spells.A vampire is  +7.075 CR, and a ghost is in the same ball-park (depending on the special abilities).  So about the same as a lich.The worm-that-walks template is +15.72 CR; a 21st level caster would be boosting their KR to 36.72, which should have a cost of about USP 73.  That's pretty tough at 21st level.  And a 30th level character attempting the change would have to tackle a USP 91 spell.  Doable, but very tough.  Or he could do the USP 73 spell and lose 9 levels of experience.  Ouch!The pseudonatural template is +21.275, +1.275 for every 4 HD.  A 30th level character would become a KR 60.2 level character, and this would be about USP 120.  I haven't done the calculations to see what kind of mitigations might apply, but that seems awfully difficult.So what happens when a 21st level wizard becomes a KR 28 lich?  When does he level up?  I'd say he gains a level when he has enough xp to get to be a 29th level character; 406 000 xp.  Since he only has about 210 000 xp now, it will be a long wait.  Or he could sacrifice levels; maybe the 14th level lich was a 21st level epic wizard who sacrificed 7 levels in exchange for immortality?  [edit] While casting an epic spell should give a long term benefit, I don't know if it should give a +7 CR benefit.  I think that levels should be sacrificed; maybe half the CR gained?  They would still have a sizable xp debt; during this time they would be unable to spend xp.  This would limit them in various ways; no limited wishes, no gates, no mitigating epic spells with xp, nothing.  I think this would be a lot less unbalancing to the campaign.[/edit]I don't know about the LA buyback system in Unearthed Arcana.  I think it is a patch on the non-epic rules, and ideally shouldn't apply to the epic levels where (except for the *2/3 toggle for PC wealth) we don't need to distinguish ECL and KR.Anyway, that's my take on it.  I don't know if the SPs look about right or not, but this might be a basis to argue with.</blockquote>

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