Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3119625" data-attributes="member: 141">work in progressI'm starting to analyze non-epic spells in terms of "kernels" which I derive by subtracting away all the factors from a spell; everything is personal, one target, 20 round duration.  Even if it doesn't make sense (as for offensive spells).  I assume that 1 non-epic spell level = 6 SP.Here's something copy-pasted from my notes.  To get the cost of something I need to know how much everything else costs first; it's a paradox, but I seem to be making progress.[sblock]Holy Aura: (Save +8, AC +8, SR 25 +5, only vs evil -2, ProEvil protection +4, blind other +6, only vs evil -2, limited contingency (affect attacker who strikes you) +4, repeated effects +8; 20 foot radius spread +4, range 20-ft +4, 20 creatures +6 = 53)/6 = 8.83  very strong for an 8th level spell!For seed, need to get to 60. add +3 (increased SR), remove limitation of alignment +4, increase base duration (+4), range close: +6, no spread of creatures -10Slowed for 20 rounds:  (6 + close (+6), up to 20 creatures (+6) within 30 ft. +2)/6 = level 3.3Permanently blinded: (6 + still +2, medium +8, dispellable +2, living only -4)/6 = level 2.3"permanent blindness" is awfully cheap.  I wonder what temporary blindness is costed at?Confused for 20 rounds: (8 + medium +8, burst +2, in a 15 ft.-radius, +3 = 21)/6 = level 3.5   Is confusion a weak 4th level spell?Lesser confusion: (8 + close +6, living creature -4, 1 round duration -4 = 6)/6 = level 1 (bard)Invisibility: 10 + touch +2 + 20-minutes +2 = 14 SP (level 2.3)Greater invisibility; shorter duration (-2), but renews itself (+8) as a swift action (+4) when you attack (+4)  Level 4.7Invisibility sphere: (10+ 10-ft range +3 + 10-ft. radius emanation +3 + 20-minutes duration +2 = 18)/6 = level 3Mass invisibility: (10 + long +10 + 20-minutes +2 + unrestricted # of targets +10 +creatures within 180 ft. (+9)  = 41)/6 level 6.83Swift = +4, 1 round duration = -4.CLW = (4 + touch +2 = 6)/6 = level 1Mass CLW = (4 + close +6, 20 creatures +6, within 30 ft. +2 = 18)/6 = 3Fireball (damage 4 + long 10, burst +2, 20-ft.-radius +4 = 20)/6 = 3.3DBF: (Fireball + Enhance +8, delay +5, heighten +8 = 41)/6 =6.83 a bit weak for a 7th level spell.Horrid wilting: (Damage 4 + Enhanced +8, heightened +10, typeless +8, only affects living -4, long range +10,  Unrestricted number of targets +10, within 60 ft. +5 =  51)/6 = 8.5 Raise dead : (28 + 20-days temporal range +8 + touch +2 – 4 casting time – 2 power components = 32)/6 = level 5 spellResurrection: (28 + 200-years temporal range +15 + touch +2 – 6 casting time – 3 power components + almost sweeping flexibility +8 = 44)/6 = level 7 spell[/sblock]These are the list of factors that I have handy when analyzing spells:[sblock]Range:personal(targeted <=> ray +0)touch +2close +6medium +8long +10Target:1 target +020 creatures (selective) +6Unrestricted # of targets (selective) +10Burst (unselective) +2(beneficial spells that are unselective are emanations)Area5 ft.-radius +2creature to 20 foot radius +4creatures within close range +6creatures within medium range +8creatures within long range +10Duration1 round -420 rounds +020 minutes +2200 min +420 hours +620 days +81 year +1010 years +12Century +14Millenium +1610,000 years +18(permanent) Casting Time1 swift action --> +4 (in designing spells)1 round ---> -21 minute --> -410 mins ---> -61 hour ----> -10Power componentssqr root of value (in 1000s)[/sblock]I use heighten when analyzing suites of offensive spells; +1 DC = +2 SP.Right now I'm working on the assumption that you need a range factor and an area factor for all area spells.  So you can't just have a 20-ft. burst centered on the caster (+2 for an unselective burst, +4 for 20-ft. radius = +6), you also have to pay for a super-close range (+4).  If it's a 20-ft. radius burst within long range it's +6 for the area, +10 for the range.  Notice the damage kernel for a fireball (10d6) is only +4.  This is a permissive way of costing factors (it makes all kinds of things possible at low spell levels), and ignores some constraints on spell design.  But it seems to give good results when analyzing spells.  When the results come out bad I see it as an opportunity to refine the system.  I suspect that I will have the chance to do some refining with the charm person suite, which goes all the way from charm person to dominate monster.  I'm not sure that the 1 level = 6 SP formula is going to hold up over this range.  Anyway, assuming the area is within range, the cost of area should be the same as the range factors I list above.  So quadrupling the dimensions of an area should be +2; saying that increasing them 10-fold is +4 is close enough.  Here's the result of my kernel analysis for Dragonshape, Shapechange and your [polymorph] seed:Dragonshape: casting time +4, KR*2 = 48, dismissible +2 = 54Shapechange: duration +4, almost sweeping flexibility +8, change each round +8, dismissible +2 = +22 (KR 16*2 = 32)Sep’s [polymorph]: 2* KR 18 + long +10 + tens of minutes +4 = 50Since a seed is a 10th level spell, it's kernel value should be 60.  I also think your flexibility factors are a trifle too expensive.  I'd say include the flexible provision for free (it can be mitigated out) and give back the dismissible part.  It would suck to be in dragon form and not be able to get out of it.I looked up the red dragon in Upper_Krust's IH appendix, and it has a CR of 36; times 2/3 is 24.  It makes dragonshape come out very nicely; a 9th level spell should have a kernel value of 9 * 6 = 54.I guess the point of this all is seed design; figure out what the right kernel is, add enough factors ("husk") to make a good 10th level spell, and call that the seed.  Players then take the seeds, fiddle with the factors a little to make their epic spells, and its all good.</blockquote>

Verification