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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3134205" data-attributes="member: 141">It was a crazy week for me (giving and marking midterms and other assignments, calculating freshmen mid-term grades), but my week-end is free.  I'm happy as a clam combining two of my favorite activities; math and D&D.  I'm such a nerd.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> Good point, and I just realized that I forgot to account for the inherent Heighten of non-epic spells.  I'm going to arbitrarily make a 2nd level spell the base, and change the analysis of poison to 1d10 Con damage 11 +2 for touch range, +8 for repeated damage in one minute, +4 for heightened save (2nd to 4th) = 25 SP.  Still doesn't explain the druidic expertise in the area- actually it does.  2 points lower and one less heighten would be 21, a nice 3rd level spell.I knew that this repeated save business reminded me of something!  Hold monster should be able to be reverse engineered to a poison model.  Switching a spell between being a poison effect and being a [mind affecting] compulsion doesn't change its overall utility much; they are both broadly resisted effects.  In fact, the same sorts of creatures resist both types; constructs, undead, etc..  I'll do some work on it and tell you what I find.I think the two should be priced the same.  Using the totally arbitrary base of 2nd level as the standard for the save DCs, the analysis for slimy doom becomes1d4 Con damage 5 +4 flexibility +2 touch +8 repeated damage +2 day delay -4 subsequent save DCs are easier +2 heighten = 19.Still 3rd level.  Kernel analysis is an art, not a science; I find wishful thinking still plays too great a role.So +4 instead of +8? That would make sense; mummy rot prevents natural healing; an epic version should prevent non-epic magic from working.  Tying some other 14 SP effect could be a way to model an epic curse or disease.  Including the effect of Heighten (which I totally forgot yesterday) we get 2d6 ability damage 14, damage is repeated after one day +2, damage can be indefinitely repeated +8, heighten +6, uses a flat DC for subsequent saves, -4, Range touch +2, curse effect +4, for a total of 32. A 5th level spell, just like it should be.  I'm amazed at the accuracy of your intuition, Jim.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> The problem with a flat factor is that it becomes trivial when you have very powerful effects and lots of mitigation.  Doubling and tripling will be significant for a long time.  I thought of restricting this modifier to damage and flat penalties.  Maybe I'm just too paranoid about no-save dominations and such.  The power word mechanic is another way of getting no-save effects.  I don't understand the blasphemy suite well enough to generalize it in any useful way.I looked up the rules and I don't think that a massive damage save is triggered:So a negative level is not an attack that deals damage; rather the creature takes a hit point penalty.  The massive damage rule doesn't trigger.  We could run the question by Hypersmurf if there is any doubt; I don't recall him ever being wrong.</blockquote>

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