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<blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3137643" data-attributes="member: 141">Minor quibble: he only needs to take Enhance Spell once.&nbsp; Let's say he has 2 unrelated feats rather than just one.&nbsp; Or say he's 48th level instead.&nbsp; Whatever.140d6 at level 50 means that a [blast] specialist should be putting out around 210d6 fireballs; I'm going by your gut, here.&nbsp; If Metannihilator and Herald of the Eschaton work about the way they did before, they'll be tripling the damage.&nbsp; So let's say that a pure-AMC seed specialist should be doing about 70d6.&nbsp; If the pure-AMC seed specialist has 16 AMC spells, and AMC is worth -2, then he can cast a USP 85 spell (53 from level, +32 from AMC).&nbsp; What does the current system make possible? With a base seed of 30d6 and +1d6/SP, he can do 91d6.&nbsp; That's without using any kind of empowering.&nbsp; Using a single empower would be 118d6 (30d6 for 24SP, plus 49d6 for 49SP, empowered for 12SP is 79d6*1.5 = 118d6).&nbsp; If one of the &quot;other&quot; feat is MF, then he could double empower it for 134d6 (30d6 for 24SP, plus 37d6 for 37SP, double empowered for 24SP is 67d6*2 = 134d6) or triple empower it for 137d6 (30d6 for 24SP, plus 25d6 for 25SP, triple empowered for 36SP is 55d6*2.5 = 137d6).&nbsp; When the base is triple empowered, each +1SP = +2.5d6.&nbsp; A specialized [blast] feat worth 30 or 40 SP would be worth +75d6 or even +100d6.&nbsp; Two such feats plus a few feats with lesser benefits would probably yield about a 360d6 [blast], 150% more than the equivalent metamagic specialist.&nbsp; If we are going by your gut, that's too much.Here's a cut'n'paste of two earlier posts where we set out some sample monsters, their KR, their Fort save and their hp.&nbsp; Fort save is irrelevant right now (unless we make the spell a ray) but it gives an idea of what the saves are like.&nbsp; I'm gonna assume that the save DC is about equal to the character level, or a few points higher.&nbsp; It might be helpful as a reminder of how powerful these [blast] spells should, or shouldn't be, at these levels.&nbsp; [sblock][code]KR 12 Monsters - Fort save and hit pointsNightshade (Nightwing)&nbsp; &nbsp; +9&nbsp;&nbsp; 144 hpNoble Salamander&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +12&nbsp; 112 hpYoung Gold Dragon&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +12&nbsp; 133 hp12-headed Cry/pyro Hydra&nbsp; +13&nbsp; 129 hpElder Xorn&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +13&nbsp; 130 hpGlabrezu&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +18&nbsp; 174 hpColossal Spider&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +20&nbsp; 208 hpKR 18 monsters (CR 26-28) - Fort save and hit pointsNightshade (Nightcrawler) +12&nbsp; 212 hpPlanetar&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +14&nbsp; 133 hpBlack Dragon (Adult)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +15&nbsp; 199 hpFormian Queen&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +19&nbsp; 190 hpMarilith&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +19&nbsp; 216 hpBehemoth gorilla&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +24&nbsp; 376 hpKR 24-ish Monsters - Fort save and hit pointsAnaxim (KR 26)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +12&nbsp; 430 hpShadow of the Void (KR 22) +13&nbsp; 227 hp&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Shape of Fire (KR 22)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +13&nbsp; 227 hpWinterwight (KR 24)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +14&nbsp; 208 hpNeh-Thalggu (KR 26)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +16&nbsp; 336 hpGloom (KR 24)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +17&nbsp; 337 hpPit fiend (KR 21)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +19&nbsp; 225 hpGreen Dragon (old) (KR 24) +21&nbsp; 325 hp&nbsp;&nbsp; Thorciasid (KR 21)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +21&nbsp; 478 hpBalor (KR 22)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +22&nbsp; 290 hpChichimec (KR 25)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +22&nbsp; 435 hpTitan (KR 20)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +26&nbsp; 370 hpMu-Spore (KR 25)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +28&nbsp; 562 hp KR 40-ish Monsters – Fort save and hit pointsYoung Adult Force Dragon (KR 40)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +33&nbsp; &nbsp; 700 hpYoung Adult Prismatic Dragon (KR 42) +36&nbsp; &nbsp; 838 hpPrimal Earth Elemental (KR 49)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +60&nbsp; 1,392 hpBlack Slaad (KR 43)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +30&nbsp; &nbsp; 536 hpElder Treant (KR 36)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +45&nbsp; 1,025 hpPrismasaurus (KR 40)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; +41&nbsp; &nbsp; 870 hp[/code][/sblock]I think 140d6 for a 50th level metamagic specialist is reasonable; 490 hp at a very high save DC wipes out small groups of KR 24 threats, which is as it should be.&nbsp; 160d6 would be OK, but 288d6 (like I propose above) is probably too much.&nbsp; Or he could use a no-save polar ray kind of spell to do the same amount of damage to a KR 40ish threat, which won't kill it but will hurt it a lot.&nbsp; If the [blast] seed cost 24 SP for a wimpy 20d6 damage, with +1d6/SP, then a 50th level character with 16 AMC could do 81d6.&nbsp; If this is tripled by the appropriate suite of feats, then it is approximately 240d6, 171% of the metamagic specialist's total, which is not far from what your gut tells you.Of course, if it also feels right that the base seed do 30d6 and that Empower be available for +12SP, then there is a problem; there is no way that these two intestinal intuitions can be simultaneously satisfied.[edit]Well, unless you let MF give the Metamagic Specialist a level-cap busting side benefit.&nbsp; If the 50th level metamagic specialist is casting 288d6 dbfs, then a tripling a 137d6 [blast] is not too powerful at all.&nbsp; I'm just concerned that 1000 hp&nbsp; (save for half) might be too much; especially if, as a ray, it doesn't give a save.&nbsp; That's for the metamagic specialist, not the one who doing 50% more than that.On the other hand, Upper_Krust's system makes these numbers seem rather modest.&nbsp; With 16 AMC he can get 8 Empowers, but every two Empowers counts as a doubling, but a double double counts as quadruple.&nbsp; So he's doing 320d6 damage.&nbsp; The progression I propose for the metamagic specialist is quadratic rather than exponential, so it should be more stable.&nbsp; Dunno.&nbsp; 1000 hp seems like an awful lot for a fireball, even at 50th level.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cheiromancer, post: 3137643, member: 141"] Minor quibble: he only needs to take Enhance Spell once. Let's say he has 2 unrelated feats rather than just one. Or say he's 48th level instead. Whatever. 140d6 at level 50 means that a [blast] specialist should be putting out around 210d6 [i]fireballs[/i]; I'm going by your gut, here. If Metannihilator and Herald of the Eschaton work about the way they did before, they'll be tripling the damage. So let's say that a pure-AMC seed specialist should be doing about 70d6. If the pure-AMC seed specialist has 16 AMC spells, and AMC is worth -2, then he can cast a USP 85 spell (53 from level, +32 from AMC). What does the current system make possible? With a base seed of 30d6 and +1d6/SP, he can do 91d6. That's without using any kind of empowering. Using a single empower would be 118d6 (30d6 for 24SP, plus 49d6 for 49SP, empowered for 12SP is 79d6*1.5 = 118d6). If one of the "other" feat is MF, then he could double empower it for 134d6 (30d6 for 24SP, plus 37d6 for 37SP, double empowered for 24SP is 67d6*2 = 134d6) or triple empower it for 137d6 (30d6 for 24SP, plus 25d6 for 25SP, triple empowered for 36SP is 55d6*2.5 = 137d6). When the base is triple empowered, each +1SP = +2.5d6. A specialized [blast] feat worth 30 or 40 SP would be worth +75d6 or even +100d6. Two such feats plus a few feats with lesser benefits would probably yield about a 360d6 [blast], 150% more than the equivalent metamagic specialist. If we are going by your gut, that's too much. Here's a cut'n'paste of two earlier posts where we set out some sample monsters, their KR, their Fort save and their hp. Fort save is irrelevant right now (unless we make the spell a ray) but it gives an idea of what the saves are like. I'm gonna assume that the save DC is about equal to the character level, or a few points higher. It might be helpful as a reminder of how powerful these [blast] spells should, or shouldn't be, at these levels. [sblock][code]KR 12 Monsters - Fort save and hit points Nightshade (Nightwing) +9 144 hp Noble Salamander +12 112 hp Young Gold Dragon +12 133 hp 12-headed Cry/pyro Hydra +13 129 hp Elder Xorn +13 130 hp Glabrezu +18 174 hp Colossal Spider +20 208 hp KR 18 monsters (CR 26-28) - Fort save and hit points Nightshade (Nightcrawler) +12 212 hp Planetar +14 133 hp Black Dragon (Adult) +15 199 hp Formian Queen +19 190 hp Marilith +19 216 hp Behemoth gorilla +24 376 hp KR 24-ish Monsters - Fort save and hit points Anaxim (KR 26) +12 430 hp Shadow of the Void (KR 22) +13 227 hp Shape of Fire (KR 22) +13 227 hp Winterwight (KR 24) +14 208 hp Neh-Thalggu (KR 26) +16 336 hp Gloom (KR 24) +17 337 hp Pit fiend (KR 21) +19 225 hp Green Dragon (old) (KR 24) +21 325 hp Thorciasid (KR 21) +21 478 hp Balor (KR 22) +22 290 hp Chichimec (KR 25) +22 435 hp Titan (KR 20) +26 370 hp Mu-Spore (KR 25) +28 562 hp KR 40-ish Monsters – Fort save and hit points Young Adult Force Dragon (KR 40) +33 700 hp Young Adult Prismatic Dragon (KR 42) +36 838 hp Primal Earth Elemental (KR 49) +60 1,392 hp Black Slaad (KR 43) +30 536 hp Elder Treant (KR 36) +45 1,025 hp Prismasaurus (KR 40) +41 870 hp[/code][/sblock]I think 140d6 for a 50th level metamagic specialist is reasonable; 490 hp at a very high save DC wipes out small groups of KR 24 threats, which is as it should be. 160d6 would be OK, but 288d6 (like I propose above) is probably too much. Or he could use a no-save [i]polar ray[/i] kind of spell to do the same amount of damage to a KR 40ish threat, which won't kill it but will hurt it a lot. If the [blast] seed cost 24 SP for a wimpy 20d6 damage, with +1d6/SP, then a 50th level character with 16 AMC could do 81d6. If this is tripled by the appropriate suite of feats, then it is approximately 240d6, 171% of the metamagic specialist's total, which is not far from what your gut tells you. Of course, if it also feels right that the base seed do 30d6 and that Empower be available for +12SP, then there is a problem; there is no way that these two intestinal intuitions can be simultaneously satisfied. [edit]Well, unless you let MF give the Metamagic Specialist a level-cap busting side benefit. If the 50th level metamagic specialist is casting 288d6 dbfs, then a tripling a 137d6 [blast] is not too powerful at all. I'm just concerned that 1000 hp (save for half) might be too much; especially if, as a ray, it doesn't give a save. That's for the metamagic specialist, not the one who doing 50% more than that. On the other hand, Upper_Krust's system makes these numbers seem rather modest. With 16 AMC he can get 8 Empowers, but every two Empowers counts as a doubling, but a double double counts as quadruple. So he's doing 320d6 damage. The progression I propose for the metamagic specialist is quadratic rather than exponential, so it should be more stable. Dunno. 1000 hp seems like an awful lot for a [i]fireball[/i], even at 50th level. [/QUOTE]

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