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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3137970" data-attributes="member: 141">It looks like the kernel of hold monster is 6SP effect that paralyzes a creature for one round (will save negates).  That's assuming that mass hold monster is really a 9th level spell (54SP).  If it's not, then lower the kernel a bit.  The kernel analysis would beHold monster: 6 +10 repeated next round +8 repeated indefinitely + 8 medium range + 2 dispellable = 34.  A strong 5th level spell. Mass hold monster: Hold monster +8 heighten +6 burst +6 selective = 34 + 20 = 54Incidentally, a close range spell that holds a monster for a single round should be 1st level (counting "reverse heighten" as -2).  It would have an SP of exactly 6.Two issues are raised: The first is how do we extend the base duration of the kernel to something longer than one round?  There didn't use to be a save every round; that's something that was changed from 3.0 to 3.5.  The kernel analysis for the 3.0 spell would be that the kernel was 24SP, but that it had a base duration of 1 round/level.  In 3.5 the kernel used is much cheaper, but very much weaker.  In seed design you could extend the base effect by +2/round to get a longer duration without allowing saves.  The +18 spent on the "repeated indefinitely" factors could be converted, via multiple Extends, to a neat 1 minute duration.  Or you could use an exponential factor; deciding whether to do so is a tricky one.The second issue is regarding narrowly focussed spells.  Hold monster is 5th, but hold person is only 3rd.  Counting -4 for "reverse heighten" that means the focus is worth a 8SP mitigation.  Hold animal is probably a 3rd level spell as well, but is further reduced due to special expertise.  Or it could be that the utility of an animal affecting spell is less than for a broad group like humanoids or undead, and so the mitigation is correspondingly greater.  The level difference due to focus occurs elsewhere, too:  e.g. the difference between the 4th level charm monster spell and the 2nd level command undead.  Can this mitigation factor be generalized?  Can you research a spell that compels only outsiders and include a -8 mitigation factor?Sleep is an interesting spell.  With medium range (+8), a 10-ft. radius burst (+5) and a 1 min/level duration (+2) it has +15 in factors without counting the sleep kernel.  I don't like negative kernels, but they turn up all the time in low level spells.  Deep slumber is, I find, a weak 3rd level spell (at most 18SP).  Implicit heightening is worth +4SP over sleep, and maybe +6SP for the 6 additional HD.  (+2HD = +1CR and +1CR = +2SP would yield this result).So the sleep kernel is negative; -12SP + 2SP/CR would mean that sleep is really SP 7 and deep slumber is SP 17. Maybe a little higher; if deep slumber actually is a worthwhile 3rd level spell, then there should be a -11 or -10 rather than a -12.  If I understood the workings of the symbol spells I could probably get a better answer.My suspicion is not that the sleep kernel is actually negative, but that the HD limitation provides a strong mitigation.  This kind of HD limitation reminds me of the blasphemy suite which, unfortunately, I don't understand either.  Probably sleep is a removable paralysis condition (by shaking, etc.), not that this helps much. Clearly it should be difficult to impose the helpless condition on an opponent.  Hold monster does this by using a very abbreviated seed; sleep does it with a very strict HD limit.  I don't at this point know how to price a loosening of these restrictions.I wish I knew how to translate the poison table into SP terms.  I.e. how to have a spell that sprays nitharit poison over a group of creatures.  A direction for further research, perhaps.  Does the gp value assigned to poisons accurately reflect the utility of the poisons?</blockquote>

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