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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3145257" data-attributes="member: 141">I'm frustrated with kernels right now (I'm especially tired of anything related to poison, disease or hold monster) but I'm sure it will pass.  There's a stylistic difference in newer books; it's not just that there are new factors (like swift casting times and spells that can be dismissed for a quick boost)- rather, they feel like they are put together differently.  It could very well be that the implicit formula has changed over time; it may also be different from designer to designer.Anyway, the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and if we can get good seeds and factors that make nice spells, that would be great.One desideratum: clouds.  At 20th level Incendiary cloud does 80d6 damage, but spread over 20 rounds.  It's big selling point is that it ignores SR.  I have a feeling that ignoring SR should be like ignoring saves in that it is not just a constant factor but a multiplier (maybe a doubling) of the base seed.  If the mobility of the cloud were worth +4 (which seems reasonable; it adds greatly to the utility of the spell), then you'd have Incendiary Cloud(20 fireball + 4 mobile) x 2 = 48I don't know how to phrase the wording of the "cloud multiplier", though.  It would be a lot easier if it did 5d6 damage instead of 4d6.  Then you could say that it does half damage per round, but has a duration that lasts 1 round/level.  But 40% seems contrived.  And the implicit heightening hasn't been priced, and the range is wrong (it should be long; but if you change the fireball kernel to 18 the numbers don't work out).  It is suggestive, but the precise details are elusive.  Cloudkill is another example; it does a fair amount of Con damage each round, 1d4 (save for half), or a mean of 3.75 damage.  Assuming this is 40% of something, and assuming 1 point of Con damage is worth 2SP, then this component is worth 9SP (9.375 actually).  Its movement can't be directed by the caster, but it does have an esoteric effect that kills low HD opponents- I'm going to ignore it for now.  It's formula might look something likeCloudkill(9 Con damage + 6 area effect) x 2 = 30So, again, nothing about range or heightening saves, so it's kinda inconclusive.  Dunno.  Maybe "no SR" is x1.5, not x2.  Maybe the heighten factor is added after multiplying.  That might work; suppose that the base damage for incendiary cloud is 20d6, and the damage done per round is 1/5 of base.  ThenIncendiary Cloud v1.1(20 fireball + 12 double empower + 4 mobile -2 range shortened one step) x 1.5 + 5 heighten = 41 + 5 = 46.  Pretty close. And then cloudkill would beCloudkill v1.1(9 Con damage + 6 area effect + 8 range) x 1.5 = 34Even though the details are sketchy, these spells are highly valuable to metamagic specialists - an energy substituted, massively empowered incendiary cloud is a great way of dealing with swarms, mopping up isolated groups of mooks, damaging golems and so forth.  And you can do this without worrying what the internal factors are.</blockquote>

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