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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sepulchrave II" data-source="post: 3146021" data-attributes="member: 4303">You're going to hate me.If Matt (50th level) can prompt a Save with a DC of 59 with his 9th-level spells (19 +20 Int +18 Heightened +2 GSF) then we've got serious problems; he's 24 points clear of the  50/50 zone. With SR a wash, his spells are unstoppable.Even without his headband and no stat-buffs running, Matt forces a save w/ a DC of 50. The very old gold dragon (KR50; new KR = 1.5 x old KR) still autofails (Will +26) - this can't be right.This is gonna sound really weird, but I think AMC works better with WotC CRs than it does with Krusty's own CRs. MM lists a very old gold dragon as CR 22.Stripling MattA stripling Matt (22nd level, MF) with GSF (Enchantment) can force a save against his dominate monster with a DC of 30. Intelligence of 28 (15 +5 level +6 headband +2 Inherent).Modestly-Advanced MattMatt at 27th-level (MF, AMC x4) now has an Intelligence of 32 (15 +6 level +6 headband +5 Inherent). His DC is 36.Now, I'm not suggesting that the CR of a very old gold dragon should be 27 based on the saving throw for Modestly-Advanced Matt's dominate monster, but you get my point.Edit: without belabouring said point, an old prismatic dragon (WotC CR 48) has a base Will save of +50. Anecdotal, I know; illustrative nonetheless. In practice, the dragon might have a mind blank up, or a cloak of epic resistance +8, and might laugh at 50th-level Matt's puny attempts to dominate him. There again, he might not.Maybe we shouldn't count ability bonuses from items or spells at all when figuring the power curve of the metamagic specialist (or anyone else): hopefully, there will be a natural balancing achieved against the target's cloak of resistance or protective spells, or inherent bonuses, or whatever.Addendum: I am reminded of the fragility of the notion of game balance at these levels; that CRs - or KRs - really don't mean too much beyond a certain point. Sure, there are CRs that I think are wonky in the ELH: I boldly assert that I could guesstimate their challenge in play with reasonable accuracy against a group of 4 characters better than any formula.</blockquote>

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