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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3157390" data-attributes="member: 141">We do seem to be moving sideways on the epic spell-system.  Or systems, since we are working on the metamagic system as well (with AMC, and MF, and metamagic flexibility, and staggered prerequisites, and expanding the remit of Empower and... and...).  Trying to handle monsters and treasure as well is perhaps too ambitious.  But it's not like epic spells can be designed without a thought to these dimensions of the game.It's too much trying to make sense of the whole picture.  If we have a few islands of clarity it should be enough.  Take something we like and say *this* is balanced.  And balance other game elements with it as a reference point.  I like the cubic wealth by level guidelines; I suggest we keep it.  I like the guideline that characters will have one primary item at 25% of their wealth, and three secondary items worth 10% of their wealth.  I like the general notion that benefits are priced according to the square of the numeric benefit they offer.  I like the idea that a spell can emulate an item (at least for a short time) several levels before the item is affordable.  I like UK's system for estimating ECLS, though the exact way they are translated into CRs can be fiddled with.Given these principles, a few benchmark items can be used to provide a basis for extrapolation.  They may use formulas that are dubious, but that's OK.   Take that periapt- it seems to be an anti-[harrow] device.  How about we multiply the cost of a continuous death ward by an appropriate amount to broaden the scope of the protection; i.e. it starts with protection from death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and negative energy effects, and we extend the protection to ability damage, ability drain, disease, exhaustion, fatigue and poison.  But not curses; the anti-[afflict] device could be a separate item.  And one that also uses the periapt slot.  <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":]" title="Devious    :]" data-shortname=":]" />   Maybe include a bonus to Constitution.  And/or Fortitude saves as well, although I don't see its role as foiling polymorph and petrification effects.  So not too much of a bonus in these areas.  I think the resulting item should be between 250 000 gp and 500 000 gp, depending on its power.  And it would make a fine benchmark.Based on it a mind blank item can be interpolated.  Perhaps with a built-in wisdom bonus.  This should be straightforward; mind blank is a spell that basically works like a magic item anyway.  It should be available at around the same time as the periapt (I don't particular like the name "epic resilience" - how about "indomitable life"?)I like the ring of energy immunity.  Although it basically nerfs the [blast] and [field] seeds, it is expensive enough to justify its power.  Now we are starting to get the notion that any offensive seed can be warded against, although the cost might vary from 200,000 to 2 million gp.  A continuous mind blank item, priced right out of the blue book for 240,000 gp would be on the low end; the anti-[harrow] periapt is a bit more expensive; the ring of energy immunity would be quite a bit more expensive still.  Something that provided immunity to transmutations would be lower than energy immunity.  But something that provided an antimagic field that did not hinder one's own items and spells would be very, very expensive.  By the time you could afford it you'd be dealing with godlike creatures to whom an antimagic field is only an inconvenience.The abilities of monstrous opponents can provide some guidance here.  Creatures immune to mind-affecting spells have been around for a while; giving the same ability to PCs shouldn't be destabilizing.  Undead and constructs also have a slough of immunities; PCs should eventually get the same thing.  Not too many creatures are immune to all forms of energy; that ability should be later and more expensive.  Ditto with immunity to weapons- swarms are all that come to mind.  That should be even more expensive.  The basic anti-seed items would become available in the 20s and 30s, but it would be level 40 or 50 or higher before characters would be able to have many of these as secondary or tertiary items.  By that time the arms race will have provided offensive countermeasures.  Like the +8 spell level Despicable Spell metamagic feat I suggest above.  I would suggest that there be around 10 levels during which protection can be provided by a spell (in minutes, usually) and then 10 levels where the equivalent continuous item is dominant, then about 10 levels where a spell-based countermeasure is dominant, and so on.  A spellcaster won't be adding Despicable Spell via AMC until he's in his late 30s or so.  By the time that characters are in their their early 50s they should be able to blink out of the time-stream long enough to avoid nasty effects.  But casters in their 60s will be able to send their spells to their foes across time and space... and so on.  Rules for divinity will trump these rules by this time (and anyway, 50 is basically the limit for what we are designing for), and it is to be hoped that the Immortal's Handbook won't be in quite so rough a shape by then.Anyway, that's the general picture that I'm conceiving.  For spells like [afflict] we should focus on elementary effects, those that can be cast by 21st or 24th level spellcasters.  More powerful effects will either be with monstrous foes in mind (since equal level NPCs would probably be immune) or have modifiers designed to punch through protections.  But the modifiers would be so expensive that the resulting effect would be quite elementary, perhaps even non-epic. Imagine a version of mummy rot, normally a 5th level spell or so, but which is resistant even to disjunctions and wishes, continues to progress even in dead magic areas, and follows the afflicted soul even from body to body despite reincarnations and magic jars. Maybe possessing a construct or undead body would foil it.  A wild guess (based on the arms race theory just sketched) would put this in the repetoire of a 40-something level caster.  But my intuition for such things isn't as good as yours.This is just part of the picture, drawn with broad strokes, and focussing on the whole acquiring immunity/bypassing immunity arms race.  Our whole debate about the damage curve for [blast] is another part of the picture.  Once we have enough such pictures the task of implementing it with seeds and factors should be much clearer.</blockquote>

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