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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sepulchrave II" data-source="post: 897253" data-attributes="member: 4303">Some more thoughts.It occurred to me that the idea of "ascended masters" (which precipitated this whole dilemma) is still very much open to development. None have played any role whatever in the campaign to date, and my notes on them literally consist of:"DvR0; half-celestial abilities."Whilst it has always been my intention to introduce one or more of them at some point in the future, I've never really given much thought beyond that. Perhaps I need to reconsider what their powers should be. As has been mentioned, certain abilities (light, protection from evil etc.) are totally redundant by high level, much less epic levels. Whilst I am happy to include them in the list of abilities of an 'ascending' character, I don't think they should carry any weight as far as balancing vs. characters of similar ECL goes. They are trivial.Some abilities, however (dispel evil, holy aura, holy word, hallow, symbol, summon celestials, resurrection) continue to be valuable, even into epic levels - particularly considering the fact that caster level = character level for half-celestials.Increases to stats are also a major power-up compared to other characters, especially considering the fact that they stack with inherent and enhancement bonuses.If you were to apply the half-celestial template instead of 4 levels and compare what is gained to what is lost with any other Epic Class (core, prestige, whatever), I'm wondering if it is actually too much:BAB: Epic Class gains +2 (+1 at 21st; +1 at 23rd). The template grants +4 Str, effectively the same thing in melee, and +2 Dex which is +1 for missile weapons. The template also grants associated benefits which higher scores bring (AC, Initiative, Skill Checks etc.)Saving Throws: Epic Class gains additional +2 to all saves by 24th character level. Again, stat bonuses alone for the template (+4 Wis, +4 Con, +2 Dex) almost make up for this.Hit Points: The template's +4 Con will grant 40 hit points to a 20th level character. Another favourable comparison.Skill Points: The discrepancy depends on the class here, but it's important to note that I allow Intelligence increases to retrospectively increase skill points. The template would thus effectively add +20 skill points (+2 Int Increase from template), comparable to a (2+Int) progression for a human with 14 intelligence. Note that ability increases will also boost every skill the character has by at least +1. Feats: An Epic character gets a feat at 21st, and another at 24th. A fighter would also get two bonus feats, and many other classes would get one. The Template gives none. But see below.Natural Armour: The Template gives +1 natural armour - half of that granted by the epic feat 'Armour Skin.' When you throw in the +4 save vs poison that the Template grants, I'm inclined to say that its worth a regular feat, or maybe even an epic feat - albeit a weak one.Electricity, Acid and Cold Immunity: Technically, these are the equivalent of at least 3 epic feats - note that the Energy Resistance epic feat only grants resistance 10 to any one energy type. I say technically, because no player in their right mind would blow an epic feat on Energy Resistance.Spell-like Abilities: (Or the ones that matter, at any rate). The Template grants resurrection, summon monster IX, symbol, holy word, hallow and dispel evil each once per day and holy aura 3 times per day. Not to be sniffed at. Eadric's caster level would be 20th. Save DCs would be 18+ spell level - his charisma would be 27 with the Template.Oh, and unlike the Template, a 24th level character would gain a +1 increase to any ability score.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" /></blockquote>

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