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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Christian" data-source="post: 2640926" data-attributes="member: 381">Look, there's a really simple explanation for all this. At extremely high levels, spellcasters simply outclass non-spellcasters. In older editions, this happened by around 15th level. (Lower for thieves.) In 3.x, it happens in the 20th-30th level range. So, there are three basic options (assuming you wish to stick to D&D):1) Tell the fighters and rogues to suck it up, and deal with being second-class (heh!) characters to the wizards and clerics dominating the epic-level play.2) Don't play at epic levels-when everyone gets to 20th, it's time to retire the characters and start again at 1st level.3) Let the skills and feats chosen by the fighters and rogues accomplish quasi-magical effects at these really high levels, so they can continue to shine in comparison to the casters, at least part of the time.Option 1) really sucks, period. Options 2) and 3) are both good, but each has its own problems. Option 2) can be frustrating for players who have grown really attached to their characters and would like to extend their playing lives. Option 3) can be frustrating to suspension of disbelief. Personally, I'd go with option 2), especially if option 3) is that incredibly irritating to you--but that's no reason to mock it. If you're going to play at epic levels, especially way beyond 20th level, and you want to continue to include skill-based rather than magic-based characters in your game, you just have to take extreme steps to keep these characters viable. And the extreme steps WOTC took in their epic rules are pretty decent ones. If you can't cope with them, then don't play epic games-they're certainly not for everyone (myself included).</blockquote>

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