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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cheiromancer" data-source="post: 3194513" data-attributes="member: 141">If we make the CR used in [polymorph] be the group CR, then the problem disappears.  At least for the polymorph spells.There might still be problems with [augment] though, particularly mass augments.  If 20 targets is +6, the "unlimited" factor might also be too cheap at +10.  Maybe it should be an exponential factor: +6 is 20 targets, +7 is 30, +8 is 40, +9 is 60, and +10 is 80.  And so on, in a staggered doubles progression; +4 quadruples the number, and +20 multiplies by 1000.  You can still get lots of targets quite cheaply, but an effect that affects 20,000 targets will be a little more challenging.  Well, more challenging that +10 makes it anyway.Generally, though, I think that if you have two 30 SP feats contributing to one spell, there's going to be trouble.  Designing the feats so that they name the seeds they assist will help us foresee any potential problems, but care will be required.  Particularly if we have overlapping feats.I'd hate to rule out having overlapping feats; that would mean no more feats than there are seeds!  The presupposition of feats is that there is an inexhaustible number of them.  Funny that- there is a finite list of skills.Anyway, that's my idea with Lore of Circe and Arcane Accoutrement; tie the CR of [polymorph] to the group CR rather than the CR of the individual target monsters.  If we do that, then paying extra for mass effects is kind of redundant, though.  Maybe [polymorph] should default to any number of targets, subject to the constraint of group CR?Spells like [augment] that are based on one target could have a more elaborate factor for multiplicities.  Perhaps the staggered doubles progression mentioned above, or perhaps something else.[edit] Using WotC CR might be problematic for thinks like balors and solars.  Perhaps we can have a short list of monsters whose official CR is problematic.  Fire giants won't be on the list (the difference between 10 and 11 is trivial) but pit fiends maybe should be.[edit2]I'm gonna withdraw my proposal about group CR and different mass effect factors.  The problem with Abyssal Army was based on my forgetting how Lore of Circe worked.  Embarassing, since I wrote it!A Mass Polymorph feat probably needs to be written, but one that is less math intensive than Arcane Accoutrement is.  In fact, Arcane Accoutrement shouldn't have the "change base values" provision.  If it changed a touch [augment] or [fortify] to "any number of willing targets in a 100-ft. radius spread centered on you" then that would be about the right level of power.  That's about 1000 5-ft. squares, I think; it can be further widened, if desired.I dunno about the non-epic bonuses in the augment seed, either.  They seem to be a bit of a headache.</blockquote>

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