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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Halford" data-source="post: 4567320" data-attributes="member: 64844">Well lets see...   Hmm, thats not exactly what I meant though its been a while and it certainly reads that way. Frankly I would be happy for it to work as such if the Forest Gnome ability were better defined - without the Speak with Animals effect. But the Forest Gnome ability is so poorly defined,<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Can an animal be instructed to grapple?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Can an animal be instructed to engage a particular target?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Can an animal give information from scouting, what is the extent of this information?</li> </ul>I would allow all of the above, but often give out scent information and scouting information in a confusing manner. Finally what is the difference between it and Speak with Animals? Given that animals have an intelligence of 2 or lower anyway it seems to be extremely minor, surely something possessed of intelligebce 2 can only communicate in a basic way anyway, the spell even aludes to this fact. Again comparing to a similar item Disguise Self has a 10 minute rather than 1 minute duration. Again for me personally the Hat of Disguise is an incredibly versitile and useful item.  Second most of the situations where such an ability would come in extremely helpful can be replicated by a cheaper wand of Speak with Animals. Getting ferried across a river, scouting, etc. These situations come up so infrequently that 50 charges should be more than sufficient imo. Second lets consider the Summon Nature's Ally list, I would argue that after 1st level the best summons cease to be animals. As soon as 2nd level summons become available a druid is a mug not to be summoning the mechanically superior Hippogriffs - everything else on the list pales in comparison, as does much of the 3rd level list. There is also the fact that a Forest Gnome can already speak with an extremely large proportion of the animals on the list - albeit with a poorly explained ability, but then that is why I wish to create the item. So take a look at the list of available summons below and see which a character possesing the item would be able to speak to that a Forest Gnome without the item would not. [sblock=Early Summon Natures Ally List]1st<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direRat.htm" target="_blank">Dire rat</a></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagle.htm" target="_blank">Eagle</a> (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monkey.htm" target="_blank">Monkey</a> (animal) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/octopus.htm" target="_blank">Octopus</a>1 (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owl.htm" target="_blank">Owl</a> (animal) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/porpoise.htm" target="_blank">Porpoise</a>1 (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake" target="_blank">Snake, Small viper</a> (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm" target="_blank">Wolf</a> (animal) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> </ul>2nd <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBlack.htm" target="_blank">Bear, black</a> (animal) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodile.htm" target="_blank">Crocodile</a> (animal) </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBadger.htm" target="_blank">Dire badger</a> - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBat.htm" target="_blank">Dire bat</a></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm" target="_blank">Elemental, Small</a> (any) - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hippogriff.htm" target="_blank">Hippogriff</a> - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm" target="_blank">Shark, Medium</a>1 (animal)<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake" target="_blank">Snake, Medium viper</a> (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/squid.htm" target="_blank">Squid</a>1 (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolverine.htm" target="_blank">Wolverine</a> (animal) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> </ul>3rd <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ape.htm" target="_blank">Ape</a> (animal) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWeasel.htm" target="_blank">Dire weasel</a></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolf.htm" target="_blank">Dire wolf</a> - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/eagleGiant.htm" target="_blank">Eagle, giant</a> [<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor" target="_blank">NG</a>] - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lion.htm" target="_blank">Lion</a></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owlGiant.htm" target="_blank">Owl, giant</a> [<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor" target="_blank">NG</a>] - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/satyr.htm" target="_blank">Satyr</a> [<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor" target="_blank">CN; without pipes</a>] - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm" target="_blank">Shark, Large</a>1 (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#constrictorSnake" target="_blank">Snake, constrictor</a> (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake" target="_blank">Snake, Large viper</a> (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/thoqqua.htm" target="_blank">Thoqqua</a> - Item would not work on.</li> </ul>4th <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/arrowhawk.htm" target="_blank">Arrowhawk, juvenile</a> - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/bearBrown.htm" target="_blank">Bear, brown</a> (animal) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodileGiant.htm" target="_blank">Crocodile, giant</a> (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus" target="_blank">Deinonychus</a> (dinosaur) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direApe.htm" target="_blank">Dire ape</a> - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBoar.htm" target="_blank">Dire boar</a> - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direWolverine.htm" target="_blank">Dire wolverine</a> - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm" target="_blank">Elemental, Medium</a> (any) - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/salamander.htm" target="_blank">Salamander, flamebrother</a> [<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor" target="_blank">NE</a>] - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/seaCat.htm" target="_blank">Sea cat</a>1 - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shark.htm" target="_blank">Shark, Huge</a>1 (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake" target="_blank">Snake, Huge viper</a> (animal)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tiger.htm" target="_blank">Tiger</a> (animal) - Can already speak to as a Forest Gnome. </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tojanida.htm" target="_blank">Tojanida, juvenile</a>1 - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/unicorn.htm" target="_blank">Unicorn</a> [<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#descriptor" target="_blank">CG</a>] - Item would not work on.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"><a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/xorn.htm" target="_blank">Xorn, minor</a> - Item would not work on.</li> </ul>[/sblock]  The level of utility added is rather low and more importantly from my point of view eats away at a rather worrying grey area. The biggest part of my reasoning on this item is to specifically expand upon the Forest Gnomes poorly defined racial ability to speak with forest animals. Covaithe ruled that this only applies to animals which have forest in their area of origin, definetly a fair and reasonable rule. However, I find the MM designations of origin often silly, while it is reasonable to suppose that every eagle summoned comes from mountains I do not think the same can be said of summoning an animal companion. It seems clear to me that most DMs would allow a Forest Gnome to call a forest dwelling eagle, is it then possible for him to communicate or not? As to an animal companion gaining the utility of a familiar I am not convinced, an animal still has an intelligence of 2, that is an extremely important distinction. I think Trouvere vastly overestimates the utility of speak with animals as part of the scent ability, in most cases the growl is going to contain as much information as the animal could give. True I would allow an animal familiar with Orcs through experience to identify an Orc, but generally that is not in itself going to be hugely helpful, you still do not have the creatures precise location, class, etc., and in most cases the fact that you are faceing Orcs is unlikely to be helpful. In cases where the animal is not intimately familiar with the scent I would say that the information is virtually useless, how would an intelligence 2 animal describe a scent? So for 1,800gp a Forest Gnome Druid would gain a little more information on Scent checks, less worry about handle animal checks - which in my experience are either irrelevant, never used or simply forgotten. Their summons would become marginally more useful, but then that could already be said of half of their list due to their Forest Gnome racial ability. Basically I would like the Forest Gnome racial ability to be far better defined and not to serve as a limiting factor on summoning and animal companion selection. As to the question would I buy the item for 4,000gp, no I would not I would much rather have 4 pearls of power. More versitile, more useful when Wild Shape becomes available, etc.</blockquote>

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