Essential adventures

[UngeheuerLich]

Hi,

it seems as if monster design has change durning the editing of the essential adventures.

While the adventure in the DM kit features monster with strange defenses and the most badly designed level 3 controller (giant frog), the Cairn of the Winter King has an entry for zombies which suggests, that the encounter power which gives a chance to be reduced to 1 hp previously allowed the zombies to rise again at will...

just an observation...

 

[OnlineDM]

Wait - the DM Kit adventure uses the GIANT FROG? <string of curses and mutterings>

I actually went on a mini-crusade about that creature when our party ran into it in one of the Chaos Scar adventures. The Giant Frog is the WORST 3rd-level creature I've seen so far from a fun perspective. At-will it attacks you, and if it hits you are out of the battle until you make a saving throw or your allies kill the frog. Period. No way to fight your way out or do anything useful until you save or it dies.

The one time we fought Giant Frogs, our fighter spent all but the last round of the six-round battle doing nothing but rolling saving throws. I've suggested that the Giant Frog's swallow ability be changed to Restrained rather than Stunned, still with no line of sight/effect to anything but the Frog, but allow the character to attack the Frog from the inside. I'd also rule that if an ally hits the frog while you're swallowed, they can choose to grant you a saving throw rather than dealing damage to the frog (punching it in the gut to try to make it throw you up, basically).

I'm so frustrated that they keep using this monster as-is! If you're a new player and you spend one of your first battles doing NOTHING, are you going to want to keep playing this game? Stun, especially at low levels, should be used EXTREMELY sparingly.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I haven't seen the adventure or monster, but shouldn't GMs try to avoid using more than one screw-you-over monster per encounter?

I could use a team of five 15th-level telepaths from the Dark Sun Creature Catalog against 15th-level PCs, and the XP budget matches, but it'd just be a swingy encounter. (They're squishy and have no brutes or soldiers to defend them, but could potentially dominate the entire party.)

 

[UnknownAtThisTime]

When I read the statblock for the giant frog in the Reavers adventure, I thought "Well that seems a little excessive. I think I'll alter it's power when I run this adventure."

Problem solved.

 

[Goonalan]

I used the Stick in the Mud adventure as part of HS1 Slaying Stone, see sig for full details, 6 1st Level PCs and I added a few more Bullywug Minions to the encounter in question.

Players carved through the Minions.

Giant Frog rolled up, swallowed the Elven Avenger, and led PCs on a merry dance- me describing the guys boots sticking out the things mouth- still kicking. PC spent the next three rounds in the Frog, and when he at last got out, the Frog swallowed him again and hopped off some more.

The second Frog swallowed the Githyanki Swordmage, but he saved and slaughtered it the round after.

Overpowered- maybe, ill-thought-out- probably, but it made for a fun encounter- particularly when the Bullywug Mudlord appeared on the scene and blasted the players- the Avenger actually tried to fail his save to stay inside the Frog- it was the safest place to be for a round or two.

And I understand that Stunned can be no fun for the player in question, but the chase, and the Pacifist Cleric of Pelor trying to get close enough to give the Avenger a free saving throw... and then succeeding, and the Avenger failing the save. It made everyone laugh- schadenfreude, but even the player started saw the funny side of it, particularly when he got swallowed the second time...

Serbian swear words are very loud and pointy.

 

[OnlineDM]

And I understand that Stunned can be no fun for the player in question, but the chase, and the Pacifist Cleric of Pelor trying to get close enough to give the Avenger a free saving throw... and then succeeding, and the Avenger failing the save. It made everyone laugh- schadenfreude, but even the player started saw the funny side of it, particularly when he got swallowed the second time...

I'm glad your Avenger could laugh about it. But I have two points to consider.

First, by RAW the Cleric could NOT have granted the Avenger a saving throw. From the Giant Frog's Bite power:

A swallowed target is stunned, takes ongoing 5 damage, and can’t be targeted by any effect (save ends all effects). A giant frog can have only one target swallowed at a time and cannot make bite attacks as long as the swallowed target is alive.

And THAT is my problem with the Giant Frog (and my second point). The problem isn't just an at-will power that stuns (save ends). It's also that the player who is stunned can't do ANYTHING, nor can anything be done to help them.

Now, I agree that allowing an ally to use an ability to allow the swallowed character to making a saving throw makes sense, and I would change the ability to allow it. But as written, that's not allowed. I would also allow the swallowed character to attack the Giant Frog from the inside, so that they can at least do SOMETHING on their turn.

Getting stomped on can be fun. Heck, even making death saves with the chance of springing back to life on a 20 can be interesting. But being stunned, with no chance for any of your allies to help you, is my definition of UNFUN.

No interaction = no fun.

Again, I'm glad that it was fun for your group. It was not at all fun for mine, and it's a lesson I'm taking strongly to heart as a DM. I will not use stun (save ends) unless:

• It's a once-per-encounter ability or, at the very least, a Recharge 6 or something
• It starts off as something milder such as immobilized (save ends) that turns into stunned on a failed save (or two)
• I have a party with lots of ways of getting around stunning effects (bonus saving throws, magic items to help them) and I think they would enjoy allowing those abilities to come into play

 

[renau1g]

Sadly this monster reminds me of the save vs. suck spells of 3e, not to the level of your PC disintigrating, but not playing is nearly as bad IMO.

I ran this adventure here in PbP and for those not familiar with the format, it's a rather slow way of playing, with at best 1/round per day or so of combat, usually more like 1/round every 48 hours, so failing that save and being stuck in the frog for a week or so really, really sucks large...Now...I grabbed the warden so he could use the cool Font of Life save and so had a much higher chance of getting out and still doing stuff

 

[Goonalan]

Point taken, and the RAW get ignored (or at least forgotten every now and then), so my bad- but still...

Just to say it again, I like monsters that mess with the party- I realise Stunned is no fun but I also remember when we were playing the Pyramid of Shadows and the Warlord failed his saves and ended up Petrified- and nobody had the ritual/magic needed to undo the effect.

I understand I should tailor the scenarios to allow for player fun but there's part of me (the fiendish DM part) that enjoys it when a player gets his or her comeuppance for a little while, and with the right narrative, and as long as the players get on board, then I seem to be able to make it work.

The Warlord didn't roll another dice in the Pyramid of Shadows- he did come out of it a different player, with a whole new outlook, and he did some great roleplay when the PCs got him back to flesh again- it was his 40 days in the wilderness moment, Han Solo in the whatchamacallit. He came back a more spiritual player- Kane-like.

Just to add, I've been playing with this group of players via VTT for nearly two years- in all that time I have not killed one of their players, that's not for the want of trying. Previous to the Giant Frog I can't remember the last time any of them were Stunned, although I'm sure its happened- just very very rarely. I know what I can get away with the players- just every now and then I like to take a step over the line, just to remind them that there are nasty creatures out there (even at Level 1) that can make things difficult for them.

Again, fun = good, got it; it was fun for us, and after the Avenger got swallowed it made the rest of the fight a whole lot more interesting with PCs trying to rescue the guy, while avoiding the other frog- or else taking it down from range. But, of course, change the rules and/or omit as suits your purpose- not a problem.



Cheers Goonalan

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It is just dangerously boring... because it lacks any kind of interaction. As said: if your ally could be targeted by a save granting effect or if the frog would be unable to use this power again (at least for a round) then there would really be no problem.