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<blockquote data-quote="Obryn" data-source="post: 5288593" data-attributes="member: 11821">Okay, then the criteria are met now, before the release of Essentials.&nbsp; Is 4e really 4.5 right now?&nbsp;I don't really see why - whether or not it's been different in the past, there was no need for it to be different now.&nbsp; The 4e A/E/D power structure has shown itself to be quite flexible, and certainly sufficient for some psionic classes.&nbsp; They could have even kept the same power structure, and added power points as floating enhancements that you could spend on an encounter or daily basis; it would have worked as well, and it would have stayed closer.But in addition to that, in the same book, we have (1) Hybrids, which are a massive change to the class structure, given their flexibility; and (2) Skill Powers, which are universal utilities that anyone can take.&nbsp; Both of these are at least as significant as having a Slayer subclass who gets class features at certain levels.&nbsp; Saying one is indicative of an edition jump, while none of the innovations in PHB3 were, is absolutely arbitrary.But again, if you're using magic missile as a demarcation of &quot;4.5ness,&quot; we're in it now.&nbsp; If you want to call Essentials 4.5, IMO you need to show why it's Essentials, as opposed to currently-existing changes and updates, that makes it 4.5.The natural question is, &quot;In what ways?&quot;&nbsp; It's not messing with the class structure - that's been done, with psionics and hybrids about as big a jump as the new builds of martial classes.&nbsp; It's not feats that scale with level - we already have plenty of those.&nbsp; It's not magic missile or infernal wrath - those are here already, too.&nbsp; Monster damage?&nbsp; Been there, done that.&nbsp; Wizard miss effects or floating ability scores?&nbsp; If that's your demarcation, it's weak and arbitrary compared to everything else to-date.I'm struggling to see how the game, post-Essentials will be fundamentally (your word) different in nature from what we have now.-O</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Obryn, post: 5288593, member: 11821"] Okay, then the criteria are met now, before the release of Essentials. Is 4e really 4.5 right now? I don't really see why - whether or not it's been different in the past, there was no need for it to be different now. The 4e A/E/D power structure has shown itself to be quite flexible, and certainly sufficient for some psionic classes. They could have even kept the same power structure, and added power points as floating enhancements that you could spend on an encounter or daily basis; it would have worked as well, and it would have stayed closer. But in addition to that, in the same book, we have (1) Hybrids, which are a massive change to the class structure, given their flexibility; and (2) Skill Powers, which are universal utilities that anyone can take. Both of these are at least as significant as having a Slayer subclass who gets class features at certain levels. Saying one is indicative of an edition jump, while none of the innovations in PHB3 were, is absolutely arbitrary. But again, if you're using magic missile as a demarcation of "4.5ness," we're [I]in it now.[/I] If you want to call Essentials 4.5, IMO you need to show why it's Essentials, as opposed to currently-existing changes and updates, that makes it 4.5. The natural question is, "In what ways?" It's not messing with the class structure - that's been done, with psionics and hybrids about as big a jump as the new builds of martial classes. It's not feats that scale with level - we already have plenty of those. It's not magic missile or infernal wrath - those are here already, too. Monster damage? Been there, done that. Wizard miss effects or floating ability scores? If that's your demarcation, it's weak and arbitrary compared to everything else to-date. I'm struggling to see how the game, post-Essentials will be [I]fundamentally [/I] (your word) different in nature from what we have now. -O [/QUOTE]

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