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<blockquote data-quote="Nemesis Destiny" data-source="post: 5460279" data-attributes="member: 98255">It's not the +2/3/4 that's saving a PC from Stun or Daze, it's the added saving throw at the start of the PCs turn, even when the effects aren't &quot;save ends.&quot; That will happen to a lot of PCs. Even at low level. As an example, I've been grooming a module for adaptation to my next campaign and there is a level 2 encounter containing multiple opponents with stunning capability.I also don't buy that a DM running a Mind Flayer campaign arc is &quot;forcing&quot; anything on PCs. Players fought Mind Flayers before HotFL introduced Superior Will came along, and they will continue to do so without using that feat. Not everyone qualifies for it. Furthermore, some players will continue to not pick that feat if it doesn't fit their concept. Sure, if the entire campaign is centred around such creatures, players are highly incentivized to take it if they can, but even then it begins to make sense in a role playing context.Again, this isn't the point of taking Superior Will. It's a nice boost to that defence, but it's the save vs. effects at the Start of your turn that make it a lifesaver.I'm inclined to agree, but then, some DMs don't give a crap either. And there are lots more things that daze, and saving against that is just as good sometimes, like in a case where you are dazed and prone. You might as well be stunned, because there goes your 1 action for the round on getting up. Or Dazed and grabbed. Or Dazed and Your Move +1 away from anything you can attack.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nemesis Destiny, post: 5460279, member: 98255"] It's not the +2/3/4 that's saving a PC from Stun or Daze, it's the added saving throw at the start of the PCs turn, even when the effects aren't "save ends." That [I]will[/I] happen to a lot of PCs. Even at low level. As an example, I've been grooming a module for adaptation to my next campaign and there is a level 2 encounter containing multiple opponents with stunning capability. I also don't buy that a DM running a Mind Flayer campaign arc is "forcing" anything on PCs. Players fought Mind Flayers before HotFL introduced Superior Will came along, and they will continue to do so without using that feat. Not everyone qualifies for it. Furthermore, some players will continue to not pick that feat if it doesn't fit their concept. Sure, if the entire campaign is centred around such creatures, players are highly incentivized to take it if they can, but even then it begins to make sense in a role playing context. Again, this isn't the point of taking Superior Will. It's a nice boost to that defence, but it's the save vs. effects at the Start of your turn that make it a lifesaver. I'm inclined to agree, but then, some DMs don't give a crap either. And there are lots more things that daze, and saving against that is just as good sometimes, like in a case where you are dazed and prone. You might as well be stunned, because there goes your 1 action for the round on getting up. Or Dazed and grabbed. Or Dazed and Your Move +1 away from anything you can attack. [/QUOTE]

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