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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5353610" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Listen.</p><p></p><p>There are far more people who <strong>used to play</strong> D&D than those who currently play.</p><p></p><p>This has been true since, I dunno, 2e. So it's not 4e's fault (though at least up until Essentials, 4e had done little to rectify the problem). </p><p></p><p>Something that harkens back to how the game worked long before, that does nothing to throw off 4e's sacred maths, does not hurt any current 4e players in the slightest, and adds an element of continuity to the game.</p><p></p><p>If someone who played D&D back in college can pick up a D&D book today and look at <em>Magic Missile</em> and see that it hits automatically, they can smile to themselves as they remember how much fun it was to play their first wizard. Then, they can try and share that fun with their kids now. </p><p></p><p>On the other hand, if someone like that picks up the book and sees little that reminds them of their previous adventures, what reason do they have to share this new thing wearing the D&D name with their kids? They don't remember having fun with this. They have no previous investment in it.</p><p></p><p>It's worth it to note that a big HASBRO thing is banking on the nostalgia of people who used to heart these things as kids (it is the reason for the Transformers movie -- and specifically mentioned in a lot of HASBRO reports to investors and the like). </p><p></p><p>Something that Greg Leeds I'm sure knows: <em>nostalgia can frickin' sell</em>. </p><p></p><p>I've played 4e since it came out, but I <strong>love</strong> a lot of the changes Essentials makes, because I did think that 4e did, in a lot of cases, throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yes, Fighters need more things to do than "full attack, full attack, shift, full attack." No, Fighters do not need mind-bending goofiness like Daily powers to be able to do more than that. Yes, more things than the Cleric need to be able to heal the party. No, this does not mean we need Warlords screaming at you until your head reattaches itself. Yes, classes need to have about the same amount of options. No, this doesn't mean they all have to share one unified "Deck Of Many Powers" advancement and expenditure mechanic. Yes, you shouldn't have to choose between a "narrative" power and a "combat" power. No, this doesn't mean that all "narrative" powers need to be Rituals (I also don't think they all need to be Utilities, but that's one of the quibbles I have with Essentials). Yes, fluff can solve many problems. No, it shouldn't be a crutch to use just because you have a neat mechanical trick you want to try in pushing your little collectible pieces of plastic around the game board.</p><p></p><p>In a lot of ways, they're kind of trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, and I applaud the steps they're making even if I know they're not going to get back to where my ideal game lies until 5e due to the fundamental changes needed. But it's a bone. It makes swallowing the pill of 4e easier. Because I think the pill is good for me, and for my group. I just wish it didn't also cause premature grognardism and explosive message board diarrhea and uncontrolled game-night crying. Essentials will cause a bit less of that for me, and for some of the groups I play with. </p><p></p><p>Which is cool. And definitely the reason I don't have a 4e PHB sitting on my shelf, but I've got <em>Heroes of the Fallen Lands</em> there instead. Right next to my big imposing Pathfinder Core Rules....</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5353610, member: 2067"] Listen. There are far more people who [B]used to play[/B] D&D than those who currently play. This has been true since, I dunno, 2e. So it's not 4e's fault (though at least up until Essentials, 4e had done little to rectify the problem). Something that harkens back to how the game worked long before, that does nothing to throw off 4e's sacred maths, does not hurt any current 4e players in the slightest, and adds an element of continuity to the game. If someone who played D&D back in college can pick up a D&D book today and look at [I]Magic Missile[/I] and see that it hits automatically, they can smile to themselves as they remember how much fun it was to play their first wizard. Then, they can try and share that fun with their kids now. On the other hand, if someone like that picks up the book and sees little that reminds them of their previous adventures, what reason do they have to share this new thing wearing the D&D name with their kids? They don't remember having fun with this. They have no previous investment in it. It's worth it to note that a big HASBRO thing is banking on the nostalgia of people who used to heart these things as kids (it is the reason for the Transformers movie -- and specifically mentioned in a lot of HASBRO reports to investors and the like). Something that Greg Leeds I'm sure knows: [I]nostalgia can frickin' sell[/I]. I've played 4e since it came out, but I [b]love[/b] a lot of the changes Essentials makes, because I did think that 4e did, in a lot of cases, throw out the baby with the bathwater. Yes, Fighters need more things to do than "full attack, full attack, shift, full attack." No, Fighters do not need mind-bending goofiness like Daily powers to be able to do more than that. Yes, more things than the Cleric need to be able to heal the party. No, this does not mean we need Warlords screaming at you until your head reattaches itself. Yes, classes need to have about the same amount of options. No, this doesn't mean they all have to share one unified "Deck Of Many Powers" advancement and expenditure mechanic. Yes, you shouldn't have to choose between a "narrative" power and a "combat" power. No, this doesn't mean that all "narrative" powers need to be Rituals (I also don't think they all need to be Utilities, but that's one of the quibbles I have with Essentials). Yes, fluff can solve many problems. No, it shouldn't be a crutch to use just because you have a neat mechanical trick you want to try in pushing your little collectible pieces of plastic around the game board. In a lot of ways, they're kind of trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again, and I applaud the steps they're making even if I know they're not going to get back to where my ideal game lies until 5e due to the fundamental changes needed. But it's a bone. It makes swallowing the pill of 4e easier. Because I think the pill is good for me, and for my group. I just wish it didn't also cause premature grognardism and explosive message board diarrhea and uncontrolled game-night crying. Essentials will cause a bit less of that for me, and for some of the groups I play with. Which is cool. And definitely the reason I don't have a 4e PHB sitting on my shelf, but I've got [I]Heroes of the Fallen Lands[/I] there instead. Right next to my big imposing Pathfinder Core Rules.... [/QUOTE]
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