Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Essentials' "Give Backs"
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 5358830" data-attributes="member: 82106"><p>I think what it really brings up is that the whole argument is not meaningful in the context of what 4e is trying to do. Daily powers (and other limited use mechanics for that matter) are PLOT COUPONS. The players agree to sit down at the table and be bound by a particular set of rules which allows them to create a narrative. Each player makes decisions which provide them with a defined role in the narrative and a defined set of limited use resources which give them the ability to affect the narrative in various ways, that's all. That is CLEARLY the mindset of the game.</p><p></p><p>There is no 'logic' that needs to be invoked in order to 'explain' daily powers. Their dailiness or encounteriness or whatever is purely in the service of constructing a better narrative. It would be boring if Gul Rockcrusher, Dwarf Hammermaster got to smush the head of a goblin flat EVERY time he swings his hammer. Instead the player gets to choose an opportune moment when it will have the greatest dramatic impact for that to happen, and use his Brute Strike daily power. That's his big chance (as a 1st level dwarf fighter) to have a big dramatic impact on the story. The rest of the time the player uses some lesser power and dukes it out with the goblins, trading ordinary blows with them.</p><p></p><p>You don't have to look at ANY of the fighter's powers as being "trying to do a specific thing", they are just "what happens". In the GAME WORLD there is no meta-gamey anything. Gul Rockcrusher ALWAYS aims to slay his foe. He may use various ploys and techniques and general tactics to make himself as effective as possible, but he's always swinging away with that hammer. </p><p></p><p>From the PLAYER'S perspective it is all just part and parcel of creating the story of the adventure. Now and then (once a day) Gul's player gets to have a more than usually large effect on the narrative by deploying his plot coupon, Brute Strike. He may have other plot coupons, certainly he'll have one he can use every encounter that is a bit less spectacular. He may have one from an item too. He may be able to pull off extra special ones with stunts as well, which are kind of like freebie plot coupons you can generate if you're willing to submit to the luck of the dice a bit extra.</p><p></p><p>Honestly, it makes pretty good sense to me. "Spells" really aren't much different, except you would assume that with those the character was going after a specific effect from the start. Again, the characters aren't walking around going "Hmmm, I have one use of Fireball today." Instead the Wizard knows that when the flow of magic is right or whatever that his Fireball will work, and the player gets ONE plot coupon for being a level 5 Wizard that lets him say when that is. </p><p></p><p>4e is not AT ALL a simulationist game at its heart. It is a tool that provides a structure for a procedure to create a narrative story where everyone gets to participate in roughly the same manner. THAT is why the classes have the same power structure, because everyone at the table should have equal access to the NARRATIVE. It isn't about equal balanced characters except incidentally.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 5358830, member: 82106"] I think what it really brings up is that the whole argument is not meaningful in the context of what 4e is trying to do. Daily powers (and other limited use mechanics for that matter) are PLOT COUPONS. The players agree to sit down at the table and be bound by a particular set of rules which allows them to create a narrative. Each player makes decisions which provide them with a defined role in the narrative and a defined set of limited use resources which give them the ability to affect the narrative in various ways, that's all. That is CLEARLY the mindset of the game. There is no 'logic' that needs to be invoked in order to 'explain' daily powers. Their dailiness or encounteriness or whatever is purely in the service of constructing a better narrative. It would be boring if Gul Rockcrusher, Dwarf Hammermaster got to smush the head of a goblin flat EVERY time he swings his hammer. Instead the player gets to choose an opportune moment when it will have the greatest dramatic impact for that to happen, and use his Brute Strike daily power. That's his big chance (as a 1st level dwarf fighter) to have a big dramatic impact on the story. The rest of the time the player uses some lesser power and dukes it out with the goblins, trading ordinary blows with them. You don't have to look at ANY of the fighter's powers as being "trying to do a specific thing", they are just "what happens". In the GAME WORLD there is no meta-gamey anything. Gul Rockcrusher ALWAYS aims to slay his foe. He may use various ploys and techniques and general tactics to make himself as effective as possible, but he's always swinging away with that hammer. From the PLAYER'S perspective it is all just part and parcel of creating the story of the adventure. Now and then (once a day) Gul's player gets to have a more than usually large effect on the narrative by deploying his plot coupon, Brute Strike. He may have other plot coupons, certainly he'll have one he can use every encounter that is a bit less spectacular. He may have one from an item too. He may be able to pull off extra special ones with stunts as well, which are kind of like freebie plot coupons you can generate if you're willing to submit to the luck of the dice a bit extra. Honestly, it makes pretty good sense to me. "Spells" really aren't much different, except you would assume that with those the character was going after a specific effect from the start. Again, the characters aren't walking around going "Hmmm, I have one use of Fireball today." Instead the Wizard knows that when the flow of magic is right or whatever that his Fireball will work, and the player gets ONE plot coupon for being a level 5 Wizard that lets him say when that is. 4e is not AT ALL a simulationist game at its heart. It is a tool that provides a structure for a procedure to create a narrative story where everyone gets to participate in roughly the same manner. THAT is why the classes have the same power structure, because everyone at the table should have equal access to the NARRATIVE. It isn't about equal balanced characters except incidentally. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Essentials' "Give Backs"
Top