Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Essentials' "Give Backs"
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 5361790" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>That's fair, and something that hasn't been talked about much in this discussion. </p><p></p><p>There's a play experience concern in the "spike damage" vs. "consistent damage" category, and spike damage can, indeed, be much more dramatic than high consistent damage.</p><p></p><p>So you have the cleric or the wizard who, over 5 rounds, does damage (or healing) like this: 5, 5, 30, 5, 5.</p><p></p><p>Then you have the fighter or rogue, who, over 5 rounds, does damage like this: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10. </p><p></p><p>In a given combat, the total damage is the same, but, because you remember exceptions more, you remember the cleric or the wizard more, so, they have the bigger psychological impact. The fighter or rogue starts to feel left out, even if they're doing just as much damage, simply because they don't get a big dramatic SPIKE. They're consistent, which is tactically good, but not exciting (this is a little related to grind and monster issues in 4e, too: a lower swinginess means lower tension). </p><p></p><p>4e's solution (and I think it's a pretty good one) is to give everyone a spike. Now everyone does 5, 5, 30, 5, 5.</p><p></p><p>But a spike can be replicated well in an encounter power. One big blast that changes the course of battle for better or worse. Something that changes the tide of combat. That's an encounter power. </p><p></p><p>So what of the dailies?</p><p></p><p>Well, D&D historically has LTRs (long term resources), too. There's an element of that that's part of the <em>D&D Experience</em>: slowly dwindling resources that force your party to retreat at a certain point and come back later to raid the dungeon. It's what is managed between encounters, and it's an appealing, in-genre, in-narrative thing to want to achieve.</p><p></p><p>Here's where we run into sort of an issue: Daily Powers are an LTR that affect a short-term system. They're not well siloed. They influence at a scale different then the scale they are spent at. They're unnecessary in combat for all classes, but they're important to the overall span of the game.</p><p></p><p>Here's a possible solution: </p><p>[sblock=Power Surges and Heroic Skills]</p><p><strong>Power Surges</strong> and <strong>Heroic Skills</strong>. </p><p></p><p>Nix daily powers for all classes. Everyone has At-Wills and Encounters. Everyone does 5, 5, 30, 5, 5. </p><p></p><p>Instead of daily powers, characters gain <em>Power Surges</em>, which can be spent to re-charge your Encounter powers in combat (like healing surges replenish your HP).</p><p></p><p>Power Surges can also be spent on Heroic Skills. Heroic Skills consist of skill checks that are semi-pseudo-magical, but available to anyone with the skill. Anyone with Stealth can do an <em>Invisibility</em> ritual. Anyone with Athletics can do <em>Spiderclimb</em>. Diplomacy might give you <em>Charm Person</em>. Even a martial character has Power Surges, and so can conjure up that little bit of innate heroism and achieve a magical effect (just as they would conjure it up in combat to REALLY KICK BUTT). They don't cast a spell, but the effect is as if they did, because they are just that damn charming (or stealthy or athletic). Any sufficiently badass skill use is indistinguishable from magic. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>Heroic Skills might even affect combat. Maybe you know the <em>Invisibility</em> heroic skill, and, if you spend the Power Surges, you can gain it during combat for a round or so. It's about as effective as, say, an Encounter Utility. </p><p></p><p>Because they cost Power Surges, they can be balanced against encounter powers (which is what you're giving up to get them).</p><p></p><p>Your Wizard can now, Vance-like assign their Power Surges to given spells before they go out for the day ("multiple castings" of a single "slot").</p><p></p><p>PS: This is also the fix for Rituals and the fix for noncombat powers. </p><p></p><p>For Rituals, Power Surges can replace GP cost, making them worthwhile to do, with a cost that isn't trivial. </p><p></p><p>For Noncombat Powers, Heroic Skills can suffice. Now, in a skill challenge, instead of "roll your best skill against an arbitrary DC," you can say "My fighter uses Athletics to <em>Spiderclimb</em> out of there!" or "My bard uses Diplomacy to <em>Charm</em> the guard!", and have it reflect a real expenditure of a resource: going through the Skill Challenge always costs Power Surges, in the same way that going through a combat always costs Healing Surges. </p><p></p><p>You're welcome. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/glasses.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt="B-)" title="Glasses B-)" data-shortname="B-)" /></p><p>[/sblock]</p><p></p><p>I think dailies were basically retained because there does need to be an LTR management subgame to D&D, but 4e doesn't pay a lot of attention to that in general, so I'm not too surprised that the Daily powers muck it all up. It's possible to pay better attention to it. </p><p></p><p>And...I'm kind of enamored of my solution right now....<img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/paranoid.png" class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":uhoh:" title="Paranoid :uhoh:" data-shortname=":uhoh:" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 5361790, member: 2067"] That's fair, and something that hasn't been talked about much in this discussion. There's a play experience concern in the "spike damage" vs. "consistent damage" category, and spike damage can, indeed, be much more dramatic than high consistent damage. So you have the cleric or the wizard who, over 5 rounds, does damage (or healing) like this: 5, 5, 30, 5, 5. Then you have the fighter or rogue, who, over 5 rounds, does damage like this: 10, 10, 10, 10, 10. In a given combat, the total damage is the same, but, because you remember exceptions more, you remember the cleric or the wizard more, so, they have the bigger psychological impact. The fighter or rogue starts to feel left out, even if they're doing just as much damage, simply because they don't get a big dramatic SPIKE. They're consistent, which is tactically good, but not exciting (this is a little related to grind and monster issues in 4e, too: a lower swinginess means lower tension). 4e's solution (and I think it's a pretty good one) is to give everyone a spike. Now everyone does 5, 5, 30, 5, 5. But a spike can be replicated well in an encounter power. One big blast that changes the course of battle for better or worse. Something that changes the tide of combat. That's an encounter power. So what of the dailies? Well, D&D historically has LTRs (long term resources), too. There's an element of that that's part of the [I]D&D Experience[/I]: slowly dwindling resources that force your party to retreat at a certain point and come back later to raid the dungeon. It's what is managed between encounters, and it's an appealing, in-genre, in-narrative thing to want to achieve. Here's where we run into sort of an issue: Daily Powers are an LTR that affect a short-term system. They're not well siloed. They influence at a scale different then the scale they are spent at. They're unnecessary in combat for all classes, but they're important to the overall span of the game. Here's a possible solution: [sblock=Power Surges and Heroic Skills] [B]Power Surges[/B] and [B]Heroic Skills[/B]. Nix daily powers for all classes. Everyone has At-Wills and Encounters. Everyone does 5, 5, 30, 5, 5. Instead of daily powers, characters gain [I]Power Surges[/I], which can be spent to re-charge your Encounter powers in combat (like healing surges replenish your HP). Power Surges can also be spent on Heroic Skills. Heroic Skills consist of skill checks that are semi-pseudo-magical, but available to anyone with the skill. Anyone with Stealth can do an [I]Invisibility[/I] ritual. Anyone with Athletics can do [I]Spiderclimb[/I]. Diplomacy might give you [I]Charm Person[/I]. Even a martial character has Power Surges, and so can conjure up that little bit of innate heroism and achieve a magical effect (just as they would conjure it up in combat to REALLY KICK BUTT). They don't cast a spell, but the effect is as if they did, because they are just that damn charming (or stealthy or athletic). Any sufficiently badass skill use is indistinguishable from magic. ;) Heroic Skills might even affect combat. Maybe you know the [I]Invisibility[/I] heroic skill, and, if you spend the Power Surges, you can gain it during combat for a round or so. It's about as effective as, say, an Encounter Utility. Because they cost Power Surges, they can be balanced against encounter powers (which is what you're giving up to get them). Your Wizard can now, Vance-like assign their Power Surges to given spells before they go out for the day ("multiple castings" of a single "slot"). PS: This is also the fix for Rituals and the fix for noncombat powers. For Rituals, Power Surges can replace GP cost, making them worthwhile to do, with a cost that isn't trivial. For Noncombat Powers, Heroic Skills can suffice. Now, in a skill challenge, instead of "roll your best skill against an arbitrary DC," you can say "My fighter uses Athletics to [I]Spiderclimb[/I] out of there!" or "My bard uses Diplomacy to [I]Charm[/I] the guard!", and have it reflect a real expenditure of a resource: going through the Skill Challenge always costs Power Surges, in the same way that going through a combat always costs Healing Surges. You're welcome. B-) [/sblock] I think dailies were basically retained because there does need to be an LTR management subgame to D&D, but 4e doesn't pay a lot of attention to that in general, so I'm not too surprised that the Daily powers muck it all up. It's possible to pay better attention to it. And...I'm kind of enamored of my solution right now....:uhoh: [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Essentials' "Give Backs"
Top