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<blockquote data-quote="Jeremy Ackerman-Yost" data-source="post: 5278433" data-attributes="member: 4720">Not sure if I'm lumped in with those people or not, but I want to make a subtle distinction.&nbsp; It may well acquire plenty of new gamers.&nbsp; The presentation, vis a vis box, price points, etc is clearly aimed at the actual newbie.&nbsp; But that is quite distinct from the rules changes.&nbsp; In my mind, taken together, the presentation and the rules changes represent two steps forward and two steps back.&nbsp; Alas, there may not be any coming together, as opposites don't really attract in this situation.IME, the 4e rules were already doing a very good job with new gamers.&nbsp; It was my assertion in a couple of threads that 4e is pretty intuitive to a new gamer, possibly, IMO more so than what we've seen of the martial classes in 4eE.If WotC has solid data to prove me wrong (i.e. lots of newbies who can't grok the rules), that's fine.&nbsp; If they've decided that lapsed gamers are as big or bigger a target, that's also fine.&nbsp; I'm just speaking from my experience, which is that 4e has been far easier to bring to new gamers than 2e or 3e ever were.&nbsp; The creeping return of old and busted D&amp;D memes to 4e isn't going to make it easier to keep new people playing, IMO.&nbsp; YMMV and all that.Besides, the kid who goes out and buys the set or gets it as a gift is a different customer than the ones I'm talking about.&nbsp; I'm thinking about all the cats who I've watched get into D&amp;D using WoW or tactics games as a gateway drug.&nbsp; The martial classes in 4eE, at least, are moving away from a successful model for netting those players, IME.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Jeremy Ackerman-Yost, post: 5278433, member: 4720"] Not sure if I'm lumped in with those people or not, but I want to make a subtle distinction. It may well acquire plenty of new gamers. The presentation, vis a vis box, price points, etc is clearly aimed at the actual newbie. But that is quite distinct from the rules changes. In my mind, taken together, the presentation and the rules changes represent two steps forward and two steps back. Alas, there may not be any coming together, as opposites don't really attract in this situation. IME, the 4e rules were already doing a very good job with new gamers. It was my assertion in a couple of threads that 4e is pretty intuitive to a new gamer, possibly, IMO more so than what we've seen of the martial classes in 4eE. If WotC has solid data to prove me wrong (i.e. lots of newbies who can't grok the rules), that's fine. If they've decided that lapsed gamers are as big or bigger a target, that's also fine. I'm just speaking from my experience, which is that 4e has been far easier to bring to new gamers than 2e or 3e ever were. The creeping return of old and busted D&D memes to 4e isn't going to make it easier to keep new people playing, IMO. YMMV and all that. Besides, the kid who goes out and buys the set or gets it as a gift is a different customer than the ones I'm talking about. I'm thinking about all the cats who I've watched get into D&D using WoW or tactics games as a gateway drug. The martial classes in 4eE, at least, are moving away from a successful model for netting those players, IME. [/QUOTE]

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