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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Luke" data-source="post: 458604" data-attributes="member: 602">Boy, that looks just like scripting to me, and nothing like a purely data-driven solution. That is one big *expression*.Now, you call these "flexible fields", but they're pretty much *variables*, and they pretty much feed into an scripted expression.You might be thinking to use some kind of database that supports this kind of approach, but what you're actually proposing here is a database that supports a scripting capability.If you've worked with "pure" SQL before, its extremely likely that you've encountered the expression "SQL scripts" before. The word "scripts" is used because it refers to *expressions* that the database supports.Take a look into the E-Tools Access database, and see if that's how E-Tools works. It isn't.Well, I did ask that nobody publicly include a counter example, and warned that just because Wizards don't pick a technical problem doesn't mean that technical violations aren't there. I hoped that the thread wouldn't lead to the following...Here goes an interesting turn:Yes, there was a big public announcement about how PCGen was OGL/D20 compliant, and how they were the first to do it.I was curious on how they achieved this so quickly, and went to have a look at the release to see how they had achieved it.They hadn't. They still very clearly violated. I assume that the work of satisfying wizards is still quietly happening. I also think that possibly Wizards are understaffed expert pen-and-paper publishers, who are rapidly developing expertise in this area...I'm no expert on on the lst files, but I had a decent look at them, and tried to figure out how certain things were achieved in them. I don't know if the situation has changed much, but certainly a short while ago, what was in the lst files was *not* the full story.There are certain things that you need to calculate expressions for, and the lst files simply do not (or did not) carry the ability to perform those calculations.After lots of head scratching, I realized that its an open-source project with the source code available, so I went and had a look at that. Guess what I found? Key SRD mechanics expressions were actually compiled into the core program!What the lst files seem to do is similar to what RPM does with its "Modifiers" mechanism for items, feats, abilities etc. You can pass batches of modifiers through a generic algorithm that simply adds things together, grouped by stacking type. For added legal safety, RPM implements the generic algorithm in script (rather than the executable), since the "Stacking" part could lead to argument that the generic algorithm is an SRD derivation.Sure, modifiers/tags does a lot of the work, but it's still only solves *part *of your needs.Perhaps one day the lst files will be capable of making PCGen genuinely compliant. If that happens, they'll have effectively expanded its capabilites to practically include a comprehensive enough scripting capability.I don't think there are any other software examples of how you legally do anything significant without scripting. I've had brief looks at other solutions [Hey, this stuff is what I do...]- DMs Familiar: As far as I know, it doesn't do any kind of mechanics for you. You need to precalculate everything for your character/creature, and it simply shows it back to you.- DM Genie: [Warning: I took the briefest of looks, and could have it wrong here].  Very dicey for my taste. There's a Rules.txt file that seems to contain the parameters for common mechanics formulae. Ultimately, the expressions are all hard-coded away in the binary, except for the parameters, which are named on specific lines of a text file. I gather that the hope is that legal issues are avoided because the parameter names are held by proxy in an openly readable text file. For my money, Wizards can crack down on it if they feel so inclined. Ultimately, the actual expressions which do the work are still SRD derivations, and are hidden away in compiled code.I *think* DMGenie does EL, or XP calculations, and I'm pretty sure that the code for it isn't even in the rules.txt file.To my mind the big fallacy here is a belief that because the SRD mechanics are broken up into a readable and a non-readable part, the license is satisfied because the mechanics aren't wholly in compiled code. This isn't what the license is actually about. What the license is about is this: You accepted the SRD information as an open system, and the license says that you must keep it open. If you break it up, and hide part of it in compiled code, then it is no longer open, and you have violated the license.[Remember: briefest of looks, and I could have the implementation of DM Genie wrong]- Campaign Suite: Never looked anywhere near closely enough at it. Maybe I should.DMGenie and PCGen both have something in common: They were given 30 day warnings by Wizards, and then came up with relatively quick fixes. I think they both still have issues. I think that they've thrown up something complex to Wizards to demonstate how they solve *part* of their license issues, but I also think that they fail with a complete solution under close examination.The PCGen guys are pretty honest, and, I assume, working well with Wizards. I suspect they would publicly back up my suspicions of their solution.I believe implementing scripting is the only *safe* route.Jamis Buck and Robert Korzac of RealmsCrafters understood this quite well. Unfortunately, I believe that the effort of their approach in doing an RPG scripting solution from the ground up (was it called Medusa?), was too much effort, and the project never gained enough momentum as time passed. Arrival of new family for Jamis and other pressures for Rob were sadly, ultimately, too much.Bottom line:You *need* scripting. Don't assume that because PCGen claims its OGL/D20 compliant (ie. snuck it past Wizards in round 1), that they've proven scripting isn't needed.Remember, I originally indicated that scripting was necessary for any sigfificant software. Sure, you can do little bits and pieces without it. You can present useful databases of RPG information to people. You do, however, *really* stuggle to do any decent 3rd edition mechanics. As you noted Scott, its especially obvious for at-the-table software, but I believe that any very decent creature/character generator also faces these issues.Hope nobody is offended by any of this. If it ruffles your feathers, I hope you can take it in the intended spirit - something helpful to assist with avoiding pitfalls, and planning for the future (or even avoiding wasted effort up front). We RPG developers don't like to hear about the challenges the licenses create - but it is what it is. I think we'll see an update of the license that more clearly explains the issues for software, but don't expect the rules themselves to be relaxed.WotC has been through tough layoffs, and I think Wizards are currently under-resourced. My experience in dealing with Wizards is that they are very committed to enforcing the rules, and if we're currently "getting away with it", that will change.[... am I really going to press the "Submit Reply" button on this???. Oh shoot...]Regards,</blockquote>

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