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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kurtomatic" data-source="post: 4993111" data-attributes="member: 85486">Wow, until I invite you into my personal game, I don't why you'd be upset about anything. You know people (not including me, yet) do actually play the game this way? My initial post is semi-hypothetical anyway. Seriously, I never once suggested forcing anyone, much less my own regular gaming group, with using only the standard array. If I'd posted this in House Rules, I doubt I'd be made out as some Scrooge DM, but I was looking for the practical limits of chargen as written, so I posted here.At the risk of falling into cliche', did you even read where I just suggested using optional arrays to supplement point-buy? <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/ponder.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":hmm:" title="Hmmm    :hmm:" data-shortname=":hmm:" />I like dump stats just fine.., in moderation. When everyone at the table has a monkey on their back, its not as funny. And no one can pretend that this is somehow a real sacrifice on their part; 4E clearly rewards specialization. If the PHB let you go below 8, you'd see people doing that too.In fact the reason why the mandatory dump stat mindset is so popular in some circles is that 22-point-buy is a very tight squeeze to begin with. So the easy way out is to up the point-buy pool. My last 3.5 campaign was 45-point build; I'm not afraid of turning the dogs loose when I want to. But that really will inflate character power to a degree I'm not comfortable with in 4E, and cause re-jiggering of encounters. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm trying to staying within (or pretty close to) the factory performance envelope.The 18/8 ability score range is the path of least resistance in 4E chargen, and I'd like to explore my options as a DM in trying to offer modestly compelling alternatives for the sake of variety, if nothing else. However, I wanted to start with a simpler topic, and increase the scope of discussion from there. D'oh! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" /></blockquote>

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