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<blockquote data-quote="candidus_cogitens" data-source="post: 502972" data-attributes="member: 770">If it isn't evidence enough that it is listed as a Magic Item, then we would have to ask ourselves what evidence is necessary to establish that a vorpal sword or a helm of telepathy is a magic item.&nbsp; Even if you find the evidence insignificant or unpersuasive, it is still evidence.&nbsp; Look guys, I have admitted that it is an equivocal position.&nbsp; I just want to draw a conclusion for the right reason.&nbsp; And if there are no compelling arguments on either side, then we would have to just say it's up to the particular DM.&nbsp; In the end, I myself might very well decide that the most reasonable decision is to regard it as a normal spell that can be dispelled.Allow me to play the devil's advocate here, without ad hominem attacks.&nbsp; I'm not doing so just to be contrary.&nbsp; I'm trying to contribute to what was a civil debate...............As for the fact that the DMG says it is &quot;a torch with continual flame cast upon it,&quot; this is not incontrovertible evidence either.&nbsp; Most magic items involve the casting of a spell upon an item; so that does not distinguish this item from any other.&nbsp; The fact that this description specifically states it in those terms may simply be for the sake of referring you to the PHB spell description, rather than repeating the information that is given there about the nature of the dweomer.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="candidus_cogitens, post: 502972, member: 770"] If it isn't evidence enough that it is listed as a Magic Item, then we would have to ask ourselves what evidence is necessary to establish that a vorpal sword or a helm of telepathy is a magic item. Even if you find the evidence insignificant or unpersuasive, it is still evidence. Look guys, I have admitted that it is an equivocal position. I just want to draw a conclusion for the right reason. And if there are no compelling arguments on either side, then we would have to just say it's up to the particular DM. In the end, I myself might very well decide that the most reasonable decision is to regard it as a normal spell that can be dispelled. Allow me to play the devil's advocate here, without ad hominem attacks. I'm not doing so just to be contrary. I'm trying to contribute to what was a civil debate. .............. As for the fact that the DMG says it is "a torch with continual flame cast upon it," this is not incontrovertible evidence either. Most magic items involve the casting of a spell upon an item; so that does not distinguish this item from any other. The fact that this description specifically states it in those terms may simply be for the sake of referring you to the PHB spell description, rather than repeating the information that is given there about the nature of the dweomer. [/QUOTE]

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