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Everybody Cheats?
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7751044" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>I guess you're looking for evidence of design explicitly calling out the use of GM Force as problematic or anathema to playing that game? Alright. pemerton named a few. Here are a few more.</p><p></p><p>Dogs in the Vineyard </p><p>How to GM p137-138, 143</p><p></p><p>"Don't play <em>the story</em>..."</p><p></p><p>"You can't have plot points in mind beforehand...what if the PCs reconcile Brother Ezekiel and Sister Abigail? You've wasted your time. Worse, what if, because you've invested your time, you<em> don't let </em>the PCs reconcile them?</p><p></p><p>You've robbed the players of the game.</p><p></p><p>Leave 'what's going to happen' to what happens."</p><p></p><p>"If you have a solution in mind, the game rules are going to mess you up bad.</p><p></p><p>I hope I've made that clear enough. If you're GMing by the rules, you have absolutely no power to nudge things toward your desired outcome. Its best for everybody, I mean especially its best for you too, if you just don't prefer one outcome to another."</p><p></p><p>Beyond the Wall</p><p>How to GM p 42</p><p> </p><p>Avoid Illusionism - A section about not obviating player decision-points and choice by using covert GM Force to funnel them along a prescripted course.</p><p></p><p>Every Powered By the Apocalypse Game ever</p><p></p><p>1) All dice rolled by GM </p><p></p><p>2) Some iteration of the same axiom the is set out in Dogs above; "Play to find out what happens." You can find it on page 82 in AW, 187 in Blades, 126 in Masks, I can't find my copy of DW presently <a href="http://www.dungeonworldsrd.com/gamemastering/#Agenda" target="_blank">but the section in the SRD is here</a> (and supported heavily in the rest of the text and design).</p><p></p><p>I hope that is enough. There is plenty more, but those are what I have right next to me.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know who "the designers" are. There are lots of different designers. Some make better games than others. Some games are very well systemitized and when you follow the rules and the GMing ethos, its crazy, but stuff just works.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Or. We either (a) can't rely on those people decrying those designers or (b) can't rely on those designs. It can be both of those things and what I've written directly above.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>My context is pretty simple. If a game, say Dogs above, says "follow the rules...you'll be much better off for it and the game will fight you if you don't" and it turns out to be true...well, that game is working. If a game says "you're the lead storyteller and you know what is best for each moment of play and play collectively so change rules/outcomes as you see fit"...and the players understand that play paradigm and are good with it and everyone has a great time...well, that game is also working.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well that is what I was talking about with respect to the social contract. So I would definitely beg to differ. System + integrity of social contract/trust + enjoyment by the collective are definitely the component parts of "the real question at hand" when it comes to cheating (by anyone at the table, GM included).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7751044, member: 6696971"] I guess you're looking for evidence of design explicitly calling out the use of GM Force as problematic or anathema to playing that game? Alright. pemerton named a few. Here are a few more. Dogs in the Vineyard How to GM p137-138, 143 "Don't play [I]the story[/I]..." "You can't have plot points in mind beforehand...what if the PCs reconcile Brother Ezekiel and Sister Abigail? You've wasted your time. Worse, what if, because you've invested your time, you[I] don't let [/I]the PCs reconcile them? You've robbed the players of the game. Leave 'what's going to happen' to what happens." "If you have a solution in mind, the game rules are going to mess you up bad. I hope I've made that clear enough. If you're GMing by the rules, you have absolutely no power to nudge things toward your desired outcome. Its best for everybody, I mean especially its best for you too, if you just don't prefer one outcome to another." Beyond the Wall How to GM p 42 Avoid Illusionism - A section about not obviating player decision-points and choice by using covert GM Force to funnel them along a prescripted course. Every Powered By the Apocalypse Game ever 1) All dice rolled by GM 2) Some iteration of the same axiom the is set out in Dogs above; "Play to find out what happens." You can find it on page 82 in AW, 187 in Blades, 126 in Masks, I can't find my copy of DW presently [URL="http://www.dungeonworldsrd.com/gamemastering/#Agenda"]but the section in the SRD is here[/URL] (and supported heavily in the rest of the text and design). I hope that is enough. There is plenty more, but those are what I have right next to me. I don't know who "the designers" are. There are lots of different designers. Some make better games than others. Some games are very well systemitized and when you follow the rules and the GMing ethos, its crazy, but stuff just works. Or. We either (a) can't rely on those people decrying those designers or (b) can't rely on those designs. It can be both of those things and what I've written directly above. My context is pretty simple. If a game, say Dogs above, says "follow the rules...you'll be much better off for it and the game will fight you if you don't" and it turns out to be true...well, that game is working. If a game says "you're the lead storyteller and you know what is best for each moment of play and play collectively so change rules/outcomes as you see fit"...and the players understand that play paradigm and are good with it and everyone has a great time...well, that game is also working. Well that is what I was talking about with respect to the social contract. So I would definitely beg to differ. System + integrity of social contract/trust + enjoyment by the collective are definitely the component parts of "the real question at hand" when it comes to cheating (by anyone at the table, GM included). [/QUOTE]
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