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Everybody's got to have a Patron deity. Where did it come from?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7157201" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>Well, I wouldn't garner the intent from the art, as it wasn't always in line with the text. And I wouldn't say it "officially and explicitly" supported it as that would require some text that explicitly states it. It does note that the cleric class "bears a resemblance to religious orders of knighthood of medieval times." But that's about as far as it goes. </p><p></p><p>Looking at the text throughout the history of D&D, it's very clear that it's intended to be a world of at least two gods (good and evil), and really polytheistic (one god for each alignment a the minimum, but also that cultures worship a polytheistic pantheon). </p><p></p><p>For example, on pg 43 where cleric spells start, it has a "christian" cleric amongst other "clerics" from other cultures. Moreover, you'll note a lot of christian imagery when it comes to clerics through OD&D and 1e, because that's what artists (and players) are familiar with. The picture you show is directly under the rules for Resurrection Survival based on Constitution score, and shows a resurrection. The fact that it includes a cleric with a cross doesn't tell you anything about the rest of the world or their beliefs. You can read it that way, but a god in a polytheistic religion could just as easily use the sign of the cross. If it was a cleric with the hand of Torm it would still be a single cleric dedicated to a single deity in the picture, albeit it one in a polytheistic world.</p><p></p><p>The actual text strongly implies or explicitly states polytheism - "The cleric is dedicated to a deity, or deities, and at the same time a skilled combatant of arms." Of course, even in a polytheistic campaign, the cleric is still usually dedicated to <em>a</em> deity.</p><p></p><p>It also states they "can be of any alignment...depending on that of the deity that the cleric serves. Which by definition means it's a polytheistic world, or at least one with many gods, since each alignment has a different deity. Moreso, the original design of the planes of existence, also included in the PHB, included both the "heaven" and "hells" of the main monotheistic <em>and</em> polytheistic religions of earth. And myth and legend would tell you that the realm of Hades is ruled by the god Hades, for example.</p><p></p><p>Continue to the section on Character Spells and it states unambiguously "Clerical spells, including druidic, are bestowed by the gods..." Which also points to the druidic gods, which under the druid class it states, "They hold trees (particularly oak and ash), the sun and the moon as deities." So even if clerics served a single deity regardless of alignment (in which case, calling out alignment as a defining factor doesn't make sense), the druids had their own deities that granted them spells, and could judge them and take away their powers if they didn't maintain their true neutral position.</p><p></p><p>In the DMG, followers of clerics "might be fanatical followers of the same deity, (or deities)" and under acquisition of spells, "It is well known to all experienced players that clerics, unlike magic users, have their spells bestowed upon them by their respective deities." </p><p></p><p>"Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve."</p><p></p><p>Even when paying for a cleric to cast spells the prices are "based on characters of similar alignment and religion as the cleric requesting the service at the headquarters of the cleric in question." If there is but one religion, there is no need to call it out.</p><p></p><p>In the context of D&D as a whole, <em>Gods, Demigods, & Heroes</em>, further reinforced by <em>Deities & Demigods</em> it is clear that the intention and design was for a polytheistic approach. Even in the original brown box of OD&D, a cleric of 7th level (patriarch), had to choose law or chaos, and their abilities were tied to one or the other (implying a god for both). "Changing sides" as they put it, resulted in the loss of their clerical powers. Yet clerics of the other side received their spells the same as you.</p><p></p><p>So the concept of a world with multiple gods at the very least is the design intent and default of the game. Note that a world with several gods is different than a polytheistic religion, where a single religion recognizes many gods. But by the time AD&D was written, the polytheistic default had already been established in <em>Gods, Demigods & Heroes</em>, along with the explicit use of only fictional or ancient (usually mythological) religions. Not a single monotheistic religion has ever been published to my knowledge for any edition of D&D.</p><p></p><p> At the very least there was always a conflict between the gods of good and evil (sometimes law and chaos), because the clerics of the PCs and the good guys could not be worshipping the same god as the evil hordes of monsters. And while one might argue that they <em>could</em> have been fighting the nature of evil, demons, and such, it has always explicitly been a deity of some sort behind the evil creatures, with the same ability to grant spells and other divine powers to their clerics.</p><p></p><p>AD&D was released one book a year (since they were still being written primarily by one person), with the MM in 1977, PHB in 1978, DMG in 1979, and D&D in 1980. <em>Deities & Demigods</em> was considered a core book and not really "optional" by the design of the game (although it also explicitly stated that the DM should modify it to best suit what's in their campaign). As I pointed out in an earlier post, it went so far as to state that every <em>character</em>, not just clerics, should have a patron deity.</p><p></p><p>A year after <em>Deities & Demigods</em> was released, <em>Dragon</em> magazine published an article that ties a specific pantheon of gods to a specific campaign (Forgotten Realms, of course), and a year after that if I recall, Gary started detailing the gods of Greyhawk (following the publication of the <em>World of Greyhawk</em>. From that point forward, each setting had its own polytheistic pantheon, although the non-human pantheons tended to remain the same in each setting. <em>Deities & Demigods</em> was updated as <em>Legends & Lore</em> for the 2nd edition, the third and final time they would (re)publish much of the same mythological material for deities in the D&D worlds. After that, the material regarding the gods was worked into the core books themselves (Greyhawk Deities in 3e, a weird mix in 4e, and 5e presents a huge list of options - Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Eberron, Nonhuman, Celtic, Greek, Egyptian, and Norse). </p><p></p><p>So from the very first D&D release it was a game of two gods, and every release regarding deities since then not only reinforced that, but directed the game towards a polytheistic default.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7157201, member: 6778044"] Well, I wouldn't garner the intent from the art, as it wasn't always in line with the text. And I wouldn't say it "officially and explicitly" supported it as that would require some text that explicitly states it. It does note that the cleric class "bears a resemblance to religious orders of knighthood of medieval times." But that's about as far as it goes. Looking at the text throughout the history of D&D, it's very clear that it's intended to be a world of at least two gods (good and evil), and really polytheistic (one god for each alignment a the minimum, but also that cultures worship a polytheistic pantheon). For example, on pg 43 where cleric spells start, it has a "christian" cleric amongst other "clerics" from other cultures. Moreover, you'll note a lot of christian imagery when it comes to clerics through OD&D and 1e, because that's what artists (and players) are familiar with. The picture you show is directly under the rules for Resurrection Survival based on Constitution score, and shows a resurrection. The fact that it includes a cleric with a cross doesn't tell you anything about the rest of the world or their beliefs. You can read it that way, but a god in a polytheistic religion could just as easily use the sign of the cross. If it was a cleric with the hand of Torm it would still be a single cleric dedicated to a single deity in the picture, albeit it one in a polytheistic world. The actual text strongly implies or explicitly states polytheism - "The cleric is dedicated to a deity, or deities, and at the same time a skilled combatant of arms." Of course, even in a polytheistic campaign, the cleric is still usually dedicated to [I]a[/I] deity. It also states they "can be of any alignment...depending on that of the deity that the cleric serves. Which by definition means it's a polytheistic world, or at least one with many gods, since each alignment has a different deity. Moreso, the original design of the planes of existence, also included in the PHB, included both the "heaven" and "hells" of the main monotheistic [I]and[/I] polytheistic religions of earth. And myth and legend would tell you that the realm of Hades is ruled by the god Hades, for example. Continue to the section on Character Spells and it states unambiguously "Clerical spells, including druidic, are bestowed by the gods..." Which also points to the druidic gods, which under the druid class it states, "They hold trees (particularly oak and ash), the sun and the moon as deities." So even if clerics served a single deity regardless of alignment (in which case, calling out alignment as a defining factor doesn't make sense), the druids had their own deities that granted them spells, and could judge them and take away their powers if they didn't maintain their true neutral position. In the DMG, followers of clerics "might be fanatical followers of the same deity, (or deities)" and under acquisition of spells, "It is well known to all experienced players that clerics, unlike magic users, have their spells bestowed upon them by their respective deities." "Each cleric must have his or her own deity, so when a new player opts to become a cleric (including a druid), you must inform them as to which deities exist in your campaign milieu and allow the individual to select which one of them he or she will serve." Even when paying for a cleric to cast spells the prices are "based on characters of similar alignment and religion as the cleric requesting the service at the headquarters of the cleric in question." If there is but one religion, there is no need to call it out. In the context of D&D as a whole, [I]Gods, Demigods, & Heroes[/I], further reinforced by [I]Deities & Demigods[/I] it is clear that the intention and design was for a polytheistic approach. Even in the original brown box of OD&D, a cleric of 7th level (patriarch), had to choose law or chaos, and their abilities were tied to one or the other (implying a god for both). "Changing sides" as they put it, resulted in the loss of their clerical powers. Yet clerics of the other side received their spells the same as you. So the concept of a world with multiple gods at the very least is the design intent and default of the game. Note that a world with several gods is different than a polytheistic religion, where a single religion recognizes many gods. But by the time AD&D was written, the polytheistic default had already been established in [I]Gods, Demigods & Heroes[/I], along with the explicit use of only fictional or ancient (usually mythological) religions. Not a single monotheistic religion has ever been published to my knowledge for any edition of D&D. At the very least there was always a conflict between the gods of good and evil (sometimes law and chaos), because the clerics of the PCs and the good guys could not be worshipping the same god as the evil hordes of monsters. And while one might argue that they [I]could[/I] have been fighting the nature of evil, demons, and such, it has always explicitly been a deity of some sort behind the evil creatures, with the same ability to grant spells and other divine powers to their clerics. AD&D was released one book a year (since they were still being written primarily by one person), with the MM in 1977, PHB in 1978, DMG in 1979, and D&D in 1980. [I]Deities & Demigods[/I] was considered a core book and not really "optional" by the design of the game (although it also explicitly stated that the DM should modify it to best suit what's in their campaign). As I pointed out in an earlier post, it went so far as to state that every [I]character[/I], not just clerics, should have a patron deity. A year after [I]Deities & Demigods[/I] was released, [I]Dragon[/I] magazine published an article that ties a specific pantheon of gods to a specific campaign (Forgotten Realms, of course), and a year after that if I recall, Gary started detailing the gods of Greyhawk (following the publication of the [I]World of Greyhawk[/I]. From that point forward, each setting had its own polytheistic pantheon, although the non-human pantheons tended to remain the same in each setting. [I]Deities & Demigods[/I] was updated as [I]Legends & Lore[/I] for the 2nd edition, the third and final time they would (re)publish much of the same mythological material for deities in the D&D worlds. After that, the material regarding the gods was worked into the core books themselves (Greyhawk Deities in 3e, a weird mix in 4e, and 5e presents a huge list of options - Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Eberron, Nonhuman, Celtic, Greek, Egyptian, and Norse). So from the very first D&D release it was a game of two gods, and every release regarding deities since then not only reinforced that, but directed the game towards a polytheistic default. [/QUOTE]
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