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<blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 9341266" data-attributes="member: 710">The way I understand it, in a &quot;non-exception&quot;-based game, Tide of Iron as a single power doesn't exist. Instead, there is a combat rule for shoving people around, and it states modifiers and actions you need to take to do so. Everyone acn do it, and this is pretty much the only way you can do it.But in D&amp;D 4, there are countless of powers that let you shove people around the battlefield, and they all work different from each other and knowing one doesn't tell you what the others do. The only common thing is that shoving people around has defined game terms (slide, push, pull in D&amp;D 4), but how far, how many, how difficult, what resources or actions to use, it's all up to a particular power.Spells kinda always worked like that in D&amp;D. Particularly 3E D&amp;D tried to unify it all - this is how you bullrush, trip, disarm people. OF course, there were still some exceptions - this is how you can do it without provoking attacks of opportunity, without penalty, or whatever, but they were the same options for pretty much all characters (and often also monsters).The strength I noticed in play from D&amp;D 4 is that you don't really need to read up some general rules in the rulebook (those parts tended to be so simple you learned them), and only the player using their power needed to read and apply it. As a GM, I often really enjoyed seeing how my players could surprise me with some of their abilities because I didn't know them all.Of course, the drawback is that person needs to read it correctly, and needed to make all the &quot;exception&quot; thingies he had. They couldn't just say: &quot;Okay, I am going to shove the goblin into the firepit&quot;, they needed to see if they had a power that could do it (or ask the GM to use the stunt rules, which kinda defeated the point of having all these neat power packages and also, being already overloaded with available options, most people don't even think of.)I don't know if the terminology or understanding of the terms changed or are not what I think they are, though</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mustrum_Ridcully, post: 9341266, member: 710"] The way I understand it, in a "non-exception"-based game, Tide of Iron as a single power doesn't exist. Instead, there is a combat rule for shoving people around, and it states modifiers and actions you need to take to do so. Everyone acn do it, and this is pretty much the only way you can do it. But in D&D 4, there are countless of powers that let you shove people around the battlefield, and they all work different from each other and knowing one doesn't tell you what the others do. The only common thing is that shoving people around has defined game terms (slide, push, pull in D&D 4), but how far, how many, how difficult, what resources or actions to use, it's all up to a particular power. Spells kinda always worked like that in D&D. Particularly 3E D&D tried to unify it all - this is how you bullrush, trip, disarm people. OF course, there were still some exceptions - this is how you can do it without provoking attacks of opportunity, without penalty, or whatever, but they were the same options for pretty much all characters (and often also monsters). The strength I noticed in play from D&D 4 is that you don't really need to read up some general rules in the rulebook (those parts tended to be so simple you learned them), and only the player using their power needed to read and apply it. As a GM, I often really enjoyed seeing how my players could surprise me with some of their abilities because I didn't know them all. Of course, the drawback is that person needs to read it correctly, and needed to make all the "exception" thingies he had. They couldn't just say: "Okay, I am going to shove the goblin into the firepit", they needed to see if they had a power that could do it (or ask the GM to use the stunt rules, which kinda defeated the point of having all these neat power packages and also, being already overloaded with available options, most people don't even think of.) I don't know if the terminology or understanding of the terms changed or are not what I think they are, though [/QUOTE]

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