Exceptions to the "can't occupy the same square" rule

[Vrecknidj]

I can think of a few off the top of my head. The most notable are when one of the occupiers of a square is helpless. Another is when one is a mount. I suppose another is when one is diminutive or smaller (relative to medium or larger)--this last one may not be an official rule, but I find it hard to believe that the rules forbid an ogre and a flea from being in the same region.

Okay, I brought this up because I'm curious about the mount issue. I know that we could go off on another tanget (invisible or incorporeal creatures), but I want to stick to this one.

If I jump on a horse, I can end my turn there because riding a mount is an exception to the rule. What if the horse doesn't want me on it? Do we make opposed grapple checks?

What if the "mount" is a frost giant or a blue dragon, or whatever? Specifically, what if it doesn't want to be my mount?

In the case of intelligent beings, it seems clear that the issue needs to be resolved, because the extant rules forbid going through the initiative order with two creatures in the same space the whole time.

But, if I charm a giant into being a mount, or use some other means, doesn't this qualify as an exception?

Dave

 

[smetzger]

I can think of a few off the top of my head. The most notable are when one of the occupiers of a square is helpless. Another is when one is a mount.

Grappling, Overrun, I also believe that ally's can share the same 'space' using the squeezing rules. Plus there are some monster special abilities that can fit this like the Air Elementals Whirlwind, the Water Elementals Vortex, and other creatures that have Swallow Whole

You can move through an ally's space and tumble through an enemies space and Creatures with Trample can move through your space.

I suppose another is when one is diminutive or smaller (relative to medium or larger)--this last one may not be an official rule, but I find it hard to believe that the rules forbid an ogre and a flea from being in the same region.

Okay, I brought this up because I'm curious about the mount issue. I know that we could go off on another tanget (invisible or incorporeal creatures), but I want to stick to this one.

If I jump on a horse, I can end my turn there because riding a mount is an exception to the rule. What if the horse doesn't want me on it? Do we make opposed grapple checks?

Thats how I have handled it in the past. I think the grappling rules can be used anytime you enter a hostile creatures space.

If the creature is willing and able to be a mount I see no problem with allowing the creatures to use the 'share same space' exception for mounts. If it is not willing then grapple checks are in order.

House Rule warning...
You may want to limit a creatures grappling options by applying logic. For example by the rules a horse can pin a humanoid. But logically this requires an exceptional situation or unnatural movement(i.e. rolling on the ground) by the horse. It would not be unreasonable to restrict creatures, who have no apparent means of holding on to something, from making a Pin.

 

[AuraSeer]

In general, jumping onto an unwilling creature is just regular grappling. Very big or strong targets will still be able to move around the map, but you have no control and you're not really "riding" so much as "hanging on."

For a trained riding mount, like a regular light horse, I'd let you make a Ride check to get on board even if the target is unwilling. But fighting mounts are specifically trained not to allow that, so for warhorses or trained hippogriffs or whatever I'd still consider it a grapple.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I suppose another is when one is diminutive or smaller (relative to medium or larger)--this last one may not be an official rule, but I find it hard to believe that the rules forbid an ogre and a flea from being in the same region.

Very Small Creature: A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller: Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories larger than it is.

A big creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three size categories smaller than it is.

Tiny, Diminutive, and Fine Creatures: Very small creatures take up less than 1 square of space. This means that more than one such creature can fit into a single square. A Tiny creature typically occupies a space only 2-1/2 feet across, so four can fit into a single square. Twenty-five Diminutive creatures or 100 Fine creatures can fit into a single square. Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can’t flank an enemy.

-Hyp.