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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Wolv0rine" data-source="post: 4197373" data-attributes="member: 9045">I’m honestly not familiar with the Beguiler or Mindbender classes.  So I’ll use another pair of classes that I am familiar with.Barbarian 20 vs. Barbarian 19/Assassin 1:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Barbarian 20 gets +1/+1/+1/+1 BAB, +1 Fort Save, Mighty Rage and and a 6th rage/day for his 20th Barb level.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Barbarian 19/Assassin 1 gets +2 Ref Save, Sneak attack +1d6, Death Attack, Poison Use, and opens up the progression of spell slots for his 20th character level.</li> </ol>The 4E-style Barbarian 19/Assassin 1 ignores all of the BAB and Save stuff because it’s all the same from what I’ve gathered (or that part of the analogy from 3E to 4E doesn’t translate, either way), and he gets to choose Sneak attack +1d6, death attack, poison use, OR the opening up of progression of spell slots for his 20th character level (which also, granted, doesn’t translate, but I’m using a Core Class and a PrC, because being unfamiliar with the classes you referenced, I presumed Mindbender might be a PrC, I could be wrong).  But the point still stands, the 3E multi-classed character got the full measure of that 1 level, he didn’t have to chose either the Ref Save OR the Sneak Attk OR the Death Attk, OR the Poison Use…  etc, for his 1 Assassin level.Hmm?  From what I’d gathered a 1st level Wizard has 7 spells, and can change which one(s) he has ‘up’ after resting.  The feat-dipped Ftr/Wiz has 1 spell, and he can decide to swap it out for a different one when he levels up if he doesn’t like the one he took, as far as I understand it.Can I make a Sneak Attack with my magic missile?  (DM: Ahh, no)  Okay, Rog6/Wiz6…  that gives me 4/3/3/2 for spell levels.  I’ll ignore the 0-lvl spells because most of them aren’t going to help the point (okay, it’s because it’s nearly 2 am and I don’t want to type a synopsis for every spell level, just the highlights).  Spells Prepared (in an attempt to contribute in a 12th level encounter, not from any real way I’d build a character)1st Level: Protection from (alignment, likely Evil), Ray of Enfeeblement, and Magic Weapon.2nd Level: Hypnotic Pattern (that’s a potential 14 HD of fascination if I’m lucky), Invisibility (x2)3rd Level: Fly and Ray of ExhaustionRight off the bat I’m going to get the benefit of Prot from Evil, that’s good.  I Magic Weapon my Weapon, and hit the toughest-looking opponent I can determine with Ray of Enfeeblement (1d6 +3 Str Damage) before I even get into the thick of things (because I’m a Rogue, unless we just got jumped in a wicked ambush I am NOT in front of the marching order).  I slap down a Hypnotic Pattern and hope that the dice favor me or the encounter is made up of many smaller HD monsters and not a few higher HD ones so that it at least catches one or a few of them.  That’s a “cool if it works, but if not, no big” choice.  I cast Invis, close and Sneak Attack.  I retreat if possible and cast Fly, Ray of Exhaustion, then Invis again, and Sneak Attack another target.  After that (since my Invis is nullified a second time because I attacked) I ride out the duration of Fly and snipe with a bow.  When Fly ends, I engage in the battle as a 6th level Rogue.I’m not tumbling all over the battlefield Sneak Attacking and whatnot as well as a 12th level Rogue, and I’m sure not laying down the arcane artillery like a 12th level Wizard, but even if half the spells (that don’t target myself) don’t have much effect, I still had an interesting tactic available to me during the battle, and given the fact that I decided to MC in the first place, I expected 6 levels ago to not be as smack-down powerful as the single-classed 12th level party members.  But boy howdy I got 8 spells for those 6 Wiz levels (not counting cantrips), and I didn’t even include any scrolls I probably scribed at any given point, and completely neglected to include any uses I might try to put my (carefully chosen to match my character’s personality and style, of course) familiar.  So yeah, I’d be happy to say I made a healthy contribution in the 12th level encounter.  Maybe not stellar, maybe no-one went “WOW!”, but I was in there.Yes, you are weaker by one feat, you are weaker in your primary class, and as your reward you get 1 fraction of a level of another class.  IMO, our theoretical “you” just got robbed.</blockquote>

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