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<blockquote data-quote="Anubis" data-source="post: 378487" data-attributes="member: 2358">What I'm saying is that using the revised system you or I came up with that giving seperate ratings to seperate abilities and adding modifiers for size puts the ECL of dragons and outsiders WAY too HIGH.&nbsp; On the other hand, the books rate dragons' CRs WAY too LOW.You see, I never had a DM play a fully intelligent dragon before, nor have I used every ability at a dragon's disposal before.&nbsp; I have tested this now, however, and when I threw an Ancient Brown Dragon up against a QUASI-DEITY, a SAIYAN, a high-level Cleric/Sacred Fist, and a high-level Sorcerer, the dragon rolled over them like ants without a problem!I then tested this again even high-level chraracters, and the results were the same!&nbsp; Basically, it's nowhere near Level 20, nor are any of the more powerful dragons!&nbsp; In dungeons they have fewer option, but generally speaking, non-Epic character haven't a chance in Hell against these things when they're played correctly!Anyway, it is NOT, however, close to Level 40 as the revised rules would suggest.&nbsp; (The ANCIENT BROWN Dragon worked out to be CR 31 this way.)To be honest, I think we're gonna have to do what WotC did, and make a different system regarding Epic levels.&nbsp; Either that, or only add modifiers to SPECIFIC SAs and SQs.&nbsp; (Some I would keep with modifiers are Blindsight, extra appendages, Epic SR and damage reduction, things like that.)I'll give you more details as I figure them out.&nbsp; I'm working on it as we speak.&nbsp; Also, there is more I've figured out about our little test, but I'll wait until we've finished before revealing the details.&nbsp; I'm working on some ideas right now.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Anubis, post: 378487, member: 2358"] What I'm saying is that using the revised system you or I came up with that giving seperate ratings to seperate abilities and adding modifiers for size puts the ECL of dragons and outsiders WAY too HIGH. On the other hand, the books rate dragons' CRs WAY too LOW. You see, I never had a DM play a fully intelligent dragon before, nor have I used every ability at a dragon's disposal before. I have tested this now, however, and when I threw an Ancient Brown Dragon up against a QUASI-DEITY, a SAIYAN, a high-level Cleric/Sacred Fist, and a high-level Sorcerer, the dragon rolled over them like ants without a problem! I then tested this again even high-level chraracters, and the results were the same! Basically, it's nowhere near Level 20, nor are any of the more powerful dragons! In dungeons they have fewer option, but generally speaking, non-Epic character haven't a chance in Hell against these things when they're played correctly! Anyway, it is NOT, however, close to Level 40 as the revised rules would suggest. (The ANCIENT BROWN Dragon worked out to be CR 31 this way.) To be honest, I think we're gonna have to do what WotC did, and make a different system regarding Epic levels. Either that, or only add modifiers to SPECIFIC SAs and SQs. (Some I would keep with modifiers are Blindsight, extra appendages, Epic SR and damage reduction, things like that.) I'll give you more details as I figure them out. I'm working on it as we speak. Also, there is more I've figured out about our little test, but I'll wait until we've finished before revealing the details. I'm working on some ideas right now. [/QUOTE]

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