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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 387914" data-attributes="member: 4937">&quot;One thing I have been trying out giving NPCs a -2 penalty to CR (not ECL you understand).&quot;Maybe I'm not an expert opinion, but I tend to find that NPC classes are worth about half as much as PC classes when calculating CR.&nbsp; That is to say, that a 20th level NPC is at most (say he's a warior), equivalent to a CR 10 monster in challenge.&nbsp; Really, that shouldn't be so suprising.&nbsp; A basic Orc is really a 1 HD warrior.&nbsp; CR is 1/2.&nbsp; A basic gnoll is really a 2 HD warrior.&nbsp; CR is 1.&nbsp; A basic Orge is really a 4 HD warrior with the extra advantage of being large.&nbsp; CR is 3.&nbsp; A human 20th level warrior is a CR 10 encounter in my experience. A human 20th level Commoner isn't even that.&nbsp; We would probably be generous to assign CR 5.&quot;I give +1 ECL per 10 points of Strength, dexterity, or Constitution, and then +1 ECL per 20 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma.&quot;I think that isn't being tough enough. I'd say at least +1 ECL for every 4 extra points combined of STR, DEX or CON, and perhaps every 6 extra points of INT, WIS, and CHR.So if a hypothetical race has no other benifits (-1 ECL?), but has +4 to every attribute, I'd say that was a +4 ECL race. (+1 for +4 str, +1 for +4 dex, +1 for +4 con, +2 for +4 int,wis,chr (+12 combined), -1 base).Of course, the real problem is that ECL doesn't scale well.&nbsp; The above hypothetical race isn't at 1st level equal to a 5th level human character in any regard, but the same race at 16th level probably is at least a match for a 20th level human character in most regards (assuming equal equipment).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 387914, member: 4937"] "One thing I have been trying out giving NPCs a -2 penalty to CR (not ECL you understand)." Maybe I'm not an expert opinion, but I tend to find that NPC classes are worth about half as much as PC classes when calculating CR. That is to say, that a 20th level NPC is at most (say he's a warior), equivalent to a CR 10 monster in challenge. Really, that shouldn't be so suprising. A basic Orc is really a 1 HD warrior. CR is 1/2. A basic gnoll is really a 2 HD warrior. CR is 1. A basic Orge is really a 4 HD warrior with the extra advantage of being large. CR is 3. A human 20th level warrior is a CR 10 encounter in my experience. A human 20th level Commoner isn't even that. We would probably be generous to assign CR 5. "I give +1 ECL per 10 points of Strength, dexterity, or Constitution, and then +1 ECL per 20 points of Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma." I think that isn't being tough enough. I'd say at least +1 ECL for every 4 extra points combined of STR, DEX or CON, and perhaps every 6 extra points of INT, WIS, and CHR. So if a hypothetical race has no other benifits (-1 ECL?), but has +4 to every attribute, I'd say that was a +4 ECL race. (+1 for +4 str, +1 for +4 dex, +1 for +4 con, +2 for +4 int,wis,chr (+12 combined), -1 base). Of course, the real problem is that ECL doesn't scale well. The above hypothetical race isn't at 1st level equal to a 5th level human character in any regard, but the same race at 16th level probably is at least a match for a 20th level human character in most regards (assuming equal equipment). [/QUOTE]

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