experimental magic system: caster check

[Gimiric]

Caster Checks and such

Neat ideas! Which of course got me thinking, borrowing and modifying...

Basing the DC off of the spell level we start with a base DC. Then for every metamagic feat applied we adjust the DC up to that new level.

So say a first level Spell (simplicity sake) DC = 11

So by applying Maximze (or equivalent, was looking at my 3.0 Book) the DC becomes 14. I could almost see allowing multiple uses of metamagic feats using the spell casting check just due to the idea that not every spell will necessarily go off. This could also be used to open up whole new ways of how a Wizard or Sorceror learned to cast that maximized spell - she was so successful casting that spell that way that it she figured out how to apply that feat to other spells.

Gim

 

[mosaic]

cool idea. i'm fairly new at all this and no rules expert so this is the way i have to wrap my brain around it:

casters must succeed at a caster level check (1d20+caster level) vs. DC 10+(spell level x 2). cantrips are DC11.

the caster level check (1d20+caster level) is just like a magic attack roll. isn't a fighter's attack just 1d20+fighter leve?

and the DC10 is like a magic armor class. it seems like spell resistance, whether granted by magical ideas or inheriant abilities, would just be armor class bonuses.

for me, it is easier to think of the +(spell levelx2) on the difficulty side as a -(spell levelx2) from the attack side, making it more like the penalties one incurs for using an off-handed weapon or a weapon withwhich one isn't proficient. it's a 'problem' for the caster, not an aspect of the defenter.

finally, a 'missed' magical attack wouldn't actually miss the target, it would just fizzle or go awry.

for me, it's easier to use a system that closely mirrors an existing system rather than a wholely new one, but does this lose something intended by the original?

i don't know how metamagic would fit into this, but i love the idea of taking 10 and 20 being rituals. D&D magic seems to lack rituals for the most part and those are a big part of myth and legend. also, could you have critical successes or critical failures?

again, cool idea!

 

[Michael Silverbane]

this is the system i'm using in my game:

casters must succeed at a caster level check (1d20+caster level) vs. DC 10+(spell level x 2). cantrips are DC11.

in this system, wizards fail to cast their highest level spells about half of their attempts, but spells they've been casting longer have a higher success rate. the great thing about this system is that it doesn't require extra rolls to overcome spell resistance or determine spell failure due to armor. i simply add spell resistance to the DC, and add armor check penalties to spell rolls.

i don't increase DCs for multiple castings, but magic is illegal in my campaign, so most material components are very expensive, placing a limit on the frequency that my casters are willing to attempt to cast (as long as i keep them poor, which i love to do... makes for better roleplaying). i'm thinking about incorporating something like nonlethal damage equal to the spell level on failed castings, to add a risk factor... still undecided.

i was thinking about making a system based on skills in individual schools (i.e. 11 ranks in evocation, etc.), but it screwed up the 50/50 check that i was going for, because it's much harder to regulate skill ranks, what with ability modifiers and level +3 and whatnot. if anyone has any ideas, i would love to incorporate school-specific rolls, but i haven't figured it out. questions and comments are welcome.

So... Under this system, do wizards still prepare their spells? Is the prepared spell, "used up" when successfully cast? If so, is the spell "used up" if unsuccessfully cast?

Later
silver

 

[AbeTheGnome]

no prepared spells as such, or wizard classes for that matter. i'm currently using the simplified "spellcaster" class from UA, but i'm thinking about incorporating school-specific casters (not the ones from UA). so, you could be a 2nd level evoker, 12th level diviner, learning spells from only those schools when you took a level in a particular spellcasting class. this would even cut across the divine/arcane division. again, this system is experimental, which is why i've posted it here: comments.

 

[szilard]

That still doesn't address the problem of a Maximized Fireball being *harder* to cast than Meteor Swarm despite the Maximized Fireball having a lower save DC and (on average) doing less damage than the Meteor Swarm

A level of metamagic is not 2.5* as powerful as an additional spell level, by design they're about .75* as powerful.

You are misunderstanding my intent. Under my system, this isn't a problem.

Meteor Swarm is a ninth level spell. Casting it uses a ninth level spell slot.

Fireball is a third level spell. Casting it uses a third level spell slot.

Under my system, a Maximized Fireball is a Fireball - a third level spell that uses a third level spell slot. If you happen to cast a Fireball REALLY WELL, it can be Maximized. This requires no additional resources than a normal Fireball and significantly fewer resources than a Meteor Swarm would cost.

On a side note, I wouldn't allow metamagic that has an effect on the casting time or components (Quicken, Silent Still) to be decided after the fact. These would probably stay as feats that increase the base DC of the casting roll.

-Stuart

 

[erf_beto]

On a side note, I wouldn't allow metamagic that has an effect on the casting time or components (Quicken, Silent Still) to be decided after the fact. These would probably stay as feats that increase the base DC of the casting roll.

Maybe you could allow spellcaster to buy and use those metamagic feats but, if they failed, they would became fatigued, exausted, stuned, etc, since they would'nt be able to handle the magic energy in a proper manner... Risking status changes or upping the DC for future spellcasting might pay the price for interfering with magic forces too much.

I really like your ideas, specially because it doenst create a new SRD. D&D magic means that casters have no real control over magic (aside from metamagic feats), they just sprung it into existance, with Wiz20 and Wiz1 spells having the same DC. As a former WW Mage player/Storyteller, I like to see magic as something more ritualistic and caster dependent. Also, there's nothing better than seeing players eyes opening wide while you describe the blood coming out of her wizard's nose as the casting begins to fail...

One thing I still didn't get: do spellcasters still have spell slots, or is magic something you can try anytime you want? Does a failed magic check ruin a spell slot entirely?

 

[AbeTheGnome]

no spell slots. you can try as much and as often as you want, but a failed casting means a wasted action and wasted material components (and perhaps incurring some nonlethal damage, if i decide to go that way).

 

[Pyrex]

If you happen to cast a Fireball REALLY WELL, it can be Maximized. This requires no additional resources than a normal Fireball and significantly fewer resources than a Meteor Swarm would cost.

What resources?

 

[szilard]

One thing I still didn't get: do spellcasters still have spell slots, or is magic something you can try anytime you want? Does a failed magic check ruin a spell slot entirely?

Abe's system doesn't use spell slots. Mine does.

The way I'd do it:

Wizards prepare spells. They can spontaneously cast from their prepared spell list. (I dislike spell memorization. Functionally, this is a lot like Spirit Shaman casting.) A failed magic check removes the spell slot for the day.

Sorcerers know fewer spells, but their failed checks don't remove the spell slots.

-Stuart

 

[szilard]

What resources?

Resources in terms of magical energy (spell slots) - see above.

-Stuart