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<blockquote data-quote="jrowland" data-source="post: 5996069" data-attributes="member: 94389">I think there are two *problems* (if I may call them that):1) Fighters do not have a niche mechanic2) Fighting (ie melee) is too abstract compared to spellcastingA Fireball is a unique visceral effect with a clear effect. An attack with a greatsword is an abstraction with assumed bits like parrying, dodging, glancing blows, etc.Like CrazyJerome mentions, expertise dice are nice new mechanic that lends to fighting in general, bringing out of abstractness and into greater clarity (its still fuzzy, but its clearer). In that sense, applying expertise dice to power/trigger mundane combat maneuvers is a good thing. It helps bring clarity to the otherwise abstract combats that plague melee combatants.*ASIDE* Notice how we don't feel the same way about ranged attacks...they seem more visceral. Shoot an arrow, hit/miss a target while simple, is clear. Theres no dodging/parrying/tripping, etc to fold into an abstraction.For fighters themselves, unique schtick could be how they use expertise dice, which dice they get, etc. Clerics and Wizards have different lists, do fighters/rogues/warlords get different maneuver lists? Or perhaps should fighters, in keeping with &quot;simplicity&quot; get the whole list for full flexibility, and rogues and warlords dabble with maneuvers and rely more heavily on class features? Do fighters need a unique class feature if maneuvers are robust? What if, for example, fighters get MORE expertise dice but they are used up daily like vancian spells vis a vis the wizard, and rogues, for example, get fewer but recharge by encounter like warlock or sorcerer? Or mix those up?&nbsp; Perhaps fighters are at-will dice users, always have 1 dice every round to use e.g. with greater and more powerful maneuvers as their &quot;schtick&quot;. Rogues get encounter dice to use, with a limited subset of the maneuver list and a special &quot;backstab&quot; maneuver. And some other melee type (like warlord) gets Daily dice akin to a vancian caster, to use and forget with a limited subset of the maneuver list and a special &quot;shout/buff&quot; maneuvers.I think expertise dice are a leap forward in melee combat for D&amp;D and should be fleshed accordingly.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jrowland, post: 5996069, member: 94389"] I think there are two *problems* (if I may call them that): 1) Fighters do not have a niche mechanic 2) Fighting (ie melee) is too abstract compared to spellcasting A Fireball is a unique visceral effect with a clear effect. An attack with a greatsword is an abstraction with assumed bits like parrying, dodging, glancing blows, etc. Like CrazyJerome mentions, expertise dice are nice new mechanic that lends to fighting in general, bringing out of abstractness and into greater clarity (its still fuzzy, but its clearer). In that sense, applying expertise dice to power/trigger mundane combat maneuvers is a good thing. It helps bring clarity to the otherwise abstract combats that plague melee combatants. *ASIDE* Notice how we don't feel the same way about ranged attacks...they seem more visceral. Shoot an arrow, hit/miss a target while simple, is clear. Theres no dodging/parrying/tripping, etc to fold into an abstraction. For fighters themselves, unique schtick could be how they use expertise dice, which dice they get, etc. Clerics and Wizards have different lists, do fighters/rogues/warlords get different maneuver lists? Or perhaps should fighters, in keeping with "simplicity" get the whole list for full flexibility, and rogues and warlords dabble with maneuvers and rely more heavily on class features? Do fighters need a unique class feature if maneuvers are robust? What if, for example, fighters get MORE expertise dice but they are used up daily like vancian spells vis a vis the wizard, and rogues, for example, get fewer but recharge by encounter like warlock or sorcerer? Or mix those up? Perhaps fighters are at-will dice users, always have 1 dice every round to use e.g. with greater and more powerful maneuvers as their "schtick". Rogues get encounter dice to use, with a limited subset of the maneuver list and a special "backstab" maneuver. And some other melee type (like warlord) gets Daily dice akin to a vancian caster, to use and forget with a limited subset of the maneuver list and a special "shout/buff" maneuvers. I think expertise dice are a leap forward in melee combat for D&D and should be fleshed accordingly. [/QUOTE]

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