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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ahnehnois" data-source="post: 5996736" data-attributes="member: 17106">Failed? There may very well be more people out there playing 3e fighters today than any other version, several years after the 4e version officially "replaced" them. If not, it's close, and the PF version might be the most popular. Certainly the 3e and PF characters combined vastly outnumber any other version. And the PF fighter is just a 3e fighter with a better combat maneuver system and some static bonuses to cover up those dead levels. An acknowledgement that the fighter needed some improvement, but not a page 1 rewrite. You might not like it, and I have no doubt that you are not the only one, but on what basis would you say this class is a failure? I would say that late 2e with all the various mods is getting towards the point buy approach. I would also say that PF's archetypes and alt race features push the game more in that direction. Many of the other OGL games have also pushed that envelope. D&D has been evolving away from a class-based system (to what I'm calling class-enabled) for decades and continues to do so; 4e is the aberration in that respect in that it has even less multiclassing flexibility than 2e does. And 4e's inflexible character creation, class "roles" and limited multiclassing are key reasons why we're posting in a 5e forum.This is more of a fair assessment; the complaints against the 3e fighter are out there. It is hard to balance both groups.My contention is that the problem with the existing 3e-style fighter is twofold. One, on a system level there is not enough design space; not enough things for fighters to be good at. Six saving throws might help a bit; I think an active defense mechanic and a robust combat maneuver/stunt/stance system helps more. The other problem is the class just doesn't get enough stuff. The feats, even after PHBII and the like, are not good enough, and the dead levels really hurt. If these things were fixed (CS seems to fill the design space niche alright) I would think that many of the complaints would be addressed, but who knows how many would remain.</blockquote>

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