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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 6236506" data-attributes="member: 23484">I agree with the OP -- training in a skill accomplishes significantly less that raw ability. That's a choice they've made (in the latest packet), and it's a bad one. It undermines any value in having a skill system, and it disproportionately hurts players who are trying to create a concept (non-optimized) character.I've made various suggestions on these boards about the skill system as it's developed. Taken together, it would give me the skill system that I'd like to see!:1. Proficiency should grant a flat bonus. +2, +3, +5 I don't care, but something that meaningfully distinguishes trained from untrained from the start. The sliding bonus on top of that based on level matters much less, I feel (DCs are sliding anyways; what's important is to distinguish trained from untrained).2. Selection. I really like skill selection coming from background rather than class. Certain skills should be available to certain classes (e.g. Arcana for mages), regardless of background. Currently, most classes grant one skill and backgrounds four. I'm fine if these numbers get played with a bit (3 from background, 1 from class), but that general balance feels right. - For most classes, there are normally no other skills available: no "free" skills -- if a cleric wants to learn religion, and it doesn't come from her background, then she better take it as her class skill. This allows players to deviate from the norm, but ensures that all bases can be covered if the player wants. - For most classes, additional skills can only come from Feats. 3. Skilled classes. Currently, three classes get "extra" skills and skill-related abilities -- rangers, bards, and rogues. I would make the following changes:- Rangers should be the same as other classes;- Bards should have "bardic knowledge" (currently guaranteeing a minimum roll on knowledge skills) -- I like that. But I would not grant Bards expertise (at level 3). - Rogues currently have expertise (at level 1). I would instead grant them an extra background*, giving them (and them alone) proficiency in 3-4 extra skills (kicking in either at level 1 or at level 3, depending on other balancing factors). This was in the very first playtest packet, and it was dynamic in what it said about rogues. * Possibly this extra background could be select from a shortlist: thug, guild thief, soldier… 4. (Tools. Implementing these would require changing tool proficiencies somewhat as well -- I won't spell out how here. Basically, I feel tools should not grant a bonus but should allow certain checks to be made for the trained that otherwise could not be made -- an on/off switch, not a dimmer.)A flat proficiency bonus and an extra background for rogues are for me the key:- It ensures that rogues have a niche that is not eroded by other classes (in contrast, a level 3 bard is better at skills than a level 3 Rogue). - It lets Bards keep a unique ability that means they always have a wide range of information available to them. - It also means that Rogues have the greatest variety of builds available to them, and alt-builds (not around DEX or CHA remain possible).That's my pitch.</blockquote>

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