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Expertise is RUINING THE GAME!
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<blockquote data-quote="Xeviat" data-source="post: 7631645" data-attributes="member: 57494"><p>Okay, hyperbole out of the way. I don't think it's ruining the game. I just think it's existence limits what can be done with skills.</p><p></p><p>I've been working on an expanded skill system. I'm adding a few skills, because I want to have Intelligence grant additional trained skills, and I'm granting proficiency bonus to all saves (and changing how classes give out save bonuses), but while I'm at it, I thought I could codify more of what skills can do. I don't like that cool skill actions are hidden away in the feats; many of these could be skill checks. Acrobatics check to stand up from prone quickly, athletics checks to climb faster or jump further, stealth checks to disappear when someone glances away. The skill system can be expanded to allow non-casters to do incredible things, the likes of mythological heroes.</p><p></p><p>But, bounded accuracy makes it so that skills with Expertise cannot be put up aside saving throws. Saves are Proficency+Stat, expertise is (2xProficiency)+Stat. A +17 vs. +11 is simply not fair, and that's assuming a common threat would have a +5 ability modifier on something like Wisdom if we were, say, adding a Demoralize "Intimidationg check vs. Wisdom save" mechanic.</p><p></p><p>And that got me thinking that Expertise might have not been the best way to model how experts are better at certain skills. I mean it makes perfect sense, an expert is just better, right? But if an expert in thief's tools is the only way for the party to get past a lock, then only the expert in thief's tools in the party is going to get past it.</p><p></p><p>Why can't expertise allow someone to do things faster (bonus action instead of an action)? Why can't expertise allow someone to perform routine tasks easily under pressure (take 10, or reliable talent)? Heck, expertise could allow for double proficiency bonus BUT not ability score modifier; this would allow a rogue who is an expert in athletics to not need high Strength to perform incredible feats of athleticism while not needing a high strength (that would be out of character) ... I'm really liking that idea.</p><p></p><p>Instead of just "I can hit higher numbers", I think expertise should be "I can do cooler things". Bake in a mechanic like "power attack"; take -5 to your check, but you achieve something more with a success. A regular person wouldn't do this, but an expert could. Expertise could allow for doing those sort of actions without the -5 penalty, or ignoring up to a -5 penalty.</p><p></p><p>I'm just throwing stuff out there at this point. I'm in the early black board stage. Seeing what sticks. But the more I think about it, the more I'm not liking "double proficiency bonus" in a vacuum. Advantage, maybe. Base 10, or 8, or whatever skill floor, yeah maybe. But not double proficiency bonus.</p><p></p><p>What do you think?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Xeviat, post: 7631645, member: 57494"] Okay, hyperbole out of the way. I don't think it's ruining the game. I just think it's existence limits what can be done with skills. I've been working on an expanded skill system. I'm adding a few skills, because I want to have Intelligence grant additional trained skills, and I'm granting proficiency bonus to all saves (and changing how classes give out save bonuses), but while I'm at it, I thought I could codify more of what skills can do. I don't like that cool skill actions are hidden away in the feats; many of these could be skill checks. Acrobatics check to stand up from prone quickly, athletics checks to climb faster or jump further, stealth checks to disappear when someone glances away. The skill system can be expanded to allow non-casters to do incredible things, the likes of mythological heroes. But, bounded accuracy makes it so that skills with Expertise cannot be put up aside saving throws. Saves are Proficency+Stat, expertise is (2xProficiency)+Stat. A +17 vs. +11 is simply not fair, and that's assuming a common threat would have a +5 ability modifier on something like Wisdom if we were, say, adding a Demoralize "Intimidationg check vs. Wisdom save" mechanic. And that got me thinking that Expertise might have not been the best way to model how experts are better at certain skills. I mean it makes perfect sense, an expert is just better, right? But if an expert in thief's tools is the only way for the party to get past a lock, then only the expert in thief's tools in the party is going to get past it. Why can't expertise allow someone to do things faster (bonus action instead of an action)? Why can't expertise allow someone to perform routine tasks easily under pressure (take 10, or reliable talent)? Heck, expertise could allow for double proficiency bonus BUT not ability score modifier; this would allow a rogue who is an expert in athletics to not need high Strength to perform incredible feats of athleticism while not needing a high strength (that would be out of character) ... I'm really liking that idea. Instead of just "I can hit higher numbers", I think expertise should be "I can do cooler things". Bake in a mechanic like "power attack"; take -5 to your check, but you achieve something more with a success. A regular person wouldn't do this, but an expert could. Expertise could allow for doing those sort of actions without the -5 penalty, or ignoring up to a -5 penalty. I'm just throwing stuff out there at this point. I'm in the early black board stage. Seeing what sticks. But the more I think about it, the more I'm not liking "double proficiency bonus" in a vacuum. Advantage, maybe. Base 10, or 8, or whatever skill floor, yeah maybe. But not double proficiency bonus. What do you think? [/QUOTE]
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