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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 4788635" data-attributes="member: 994"><puts on bullseye suit>I'm Nail's DM in this instance (though he's involved in a couple other games and we haven't discussed what might be happening in those).Now, the party is only 4th level and leveling only every couple months or so (we only get a chance to play every other Wednesday night <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" /> ). As such I'm not really interested in what happens with the math at Paragon & Epic. When I'm regularly involved in games at those levels I'll revisit this issue.My concerns are that at level 5:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"> it seems like a feat tax, and a bad one at that since if it's there to fix the math it only does so for one weapon group, focus or implement, leaving a lot of PC's attacks in the same lurch they were in without the feat</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">it's not clear that it's necessary at all even with the math being off given that those in higher level paragon & epic games aren't always seeing a lot of problems (besides the grind, hopefully Stalker0's analysis helps with that when real life gets out of his way <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ) so at level 5 it's pretty hard to justify that every PC needs a +1 math fix bonus on all attacks (or even most of them) all the time</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I simply don't like the "it's better than all other feats out there" aspect of it, it really bothers me, I guess I just bought into the 4e hype about "we started with the math as our baseline and everything grows from there, balance is a lot easier to maintain now"</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">I think giving all players a +1 actually discourages cooperative, strategic play since it's easier for PCs to hit things just by running up and taking a swing at something, and that doing so at level 5 will have a negative impact on play & fun at higher levels</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">We're having a lot of fun with our sessions and trying out different things with each encounter, no one is complaining of any grinding, so I don't feel we need it to improve the fun factor around our table (either using the feat or giving it out automatically)</li> </ul>Now, I was reading the "So, about expertise..." thread when it was really active over a month ago but pulled it up again recently and am slowly reading through it again (up to page 13!). I think it was KarinsDad who stated he might go with an automatic +1 at Paragon and +2 at Epic which is what I'm leaning towards currently, but I'm trying to keep an open mind about things at this point. I was really hoping WotC was going to open up about this and print a Designer's Diary article or something on this topic, I thought they mentioned something like that and I want to understand what they're thinking was between PHB1 & PHB2 to merit these Expertise feats and the Defense feats at Paragon & Epic.Thanks for starting this thread, Nail!</blockquote>

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